About Religion

Question:

I have a 1987 Accord and the power antenna not working is not working all I hear is a loud clicking noise when the switch is operated. In the worse case sernario how much would it cost. Micky.

Response:

>I have a 1987 Accord and the power antenna not working is not working >all I hear is a loud clicking noise when the switch is operated. In >the worse case sernario how much would it cost. >Micky.

Mine too!  Same year, same model, same noise.  I just leave it up, but i’d be willing to bet that the plastic cord that unreels to push the antenna up and down has broken from the inside of the antenna, or off of the reel inside the motor housing.  If you ever take it apart, always remember to tie a string to the antenna wire before you pull it out! -Ken —                      Ken "It’s only a small fire" Griest   "I want to conquer the world! Give all the idiots a brand new religion!"           cooper says: Sorry I considered killing you yesterday…

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Question:

>Fighter Patrols Resume over NY, Washington-Sources

THANK YOU Savage Kamakazie Islamic Bastards!!!

Response:

> WASHINGTON (Reuters) – With the anniversary approaching of > the Sept. 11 attacks on America, the U.S. military has resumed > 24-hour air patrols by fighter jets over Washington and New York, > U.S. officials said on Friday.

Only terminally stupid people like the shoe bomber, and the bimbo and her boyfriend recently caught in Germany, would be so moronic as to try something on September 11.  As we witnessed on July 4th, nothing at all will happen on 9/11/2002.  The terrorists will strike on a day of no importance at all, which in case everyone has forgotten – and they have – was the case for 9/11 (September 11 was just another beautiful autumn day, with no significance whatsoever, until now).  I’d be a lot more concerned about Jewish holidays than 9/11. Casey

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In the past 2 days, I have noticed increased police patrols and presence in and around Dorval airport in Montreal. Even saw one couple of cops on bikes. The police patrol the stretch of road behind the AC hangars, but they haven’t closed it off.

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[snip] >Sorry for the criticism here, but of all the countries of the world, the USA >isn’t exactly the one who should be telling others that having "weapons of >mass destruction" is illegal. >If, as long as you don’t use them, having such weapons is acceptable (as is >the case for the USA for instance), then as long as Irak doesn’t use whatever >it has built, then it should be allowed to have them.

I’m very much against a war. War will penalise the ordinary citizens and unwilling conscripts of Iraq, without making the world a safer place for anyone else. Just look what happened last time round. But looking at the past record of Saddam Hussein, I’d much rather trust the US with possession of "weapons of mass destruction". I believe that most Iraqis who are in a position to speak freely would agree. >If they truly fear Irak, then just place heavy duty surveillance satellites >over Irak and intercept any type of weapon Irak sends outside of its own >country boudaries.

That won’t be technically possible any time soon. >If Hussain uses weapons against his own people, it is a united nations "human >rights" issue, not a worldwide security issue.

The trouble with these ‘united nations "human rights" issue’ is that nothing much is usually done about them. Remember what happened to the Kurds and the residents of Southern Iraq once everyone forgot about them? — Simon Elliott                      

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Fighter Patrols Resume over NY, Washington-Sources Sat Sep 7,12:32 AM ET By Charles Aldinger WASHINGTON (Reuters) – With the anniversary approaching of the Sept. 11 attacks on America, the U.S. military has resumed 24-hour air patrols by fighter jets over Washington and New York, U.S. officials said on Friday. The officials, who asked not to be identified, told Reuters that the patrols — designed to prevent hijack attacks like the ones that destroyed New York’s World Trade Center and heavily damaged the Pentagon (news-web sites) — resumed on Thursday. "With members of Congress flying to New York, and the anniversary approaching, it was decided that the patrols should resume" indefinitely, one of the officials told Reuters. The U.S. Congress met in New York on Friday for the first time in more than 200 years to mark next week’s anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks that killed about 3,000 people. Pentagon officials refused to confirm or deny whether or not the patrol flights had been resumed. Spokesman Glenn Flood said, "All I can say is that we have adequate patrols." The officials refused to comment on a CBS News report that the patrols were resumed due to increased Internet "chatter" or communications among known operatives of al Qaeda, the militant network the United States blames for the attacks. U.S. intelligence agencies have recently picked up a somewhat higher level of "chatter," or information about potential threats, but there was nothing specific and nothing to indicate that a terror attack was being planned for the Sept. 11 anniversary, a U.S. official told Reuters. "It’s at a heightened level, but not as high as around the Fourth of July," the official said on condition of anonymity. "Threat information comes in every day. Are we on a real high trend? No. Is there information coming in? Yes." The official added that U.S. security agencies were being vigilant around the anniversary, but there was no information suggesting that a terror attack was planned. AROUND THE CLOCK FLIGHTS The air patrols involving F-16 fighters and other jets flown by both Air National Guard pilots and regular Air Force personnel, will fly regular missions over the two cities around the clock, as they began doing after the attacks. The pilots could be used, with tight restrictions, to shoot down a commercial airliner if it appeared to be headed for a sensitive ground target, according to officials. In March, patrols were reduced over New York City and later over Washington to a mix of regular flights and "strip alerts" involving planes standing by at military and civilian airports to be scrambled into the air on very short notice. Patrols have, meanwhile, also been continued on an intermittent basis over other key areas of the country, including other possible targets such as nuclear plants. Before the patrols were reduced, they had tied up more than 200 fighter jets and 10,000 Air Force personnel at 30 bases across the country. Air Force officials said they had caused wear on equipment and stress on personnel, costing more than $502 million between last September and January alone. The Pentagon recently tightened up Air Force responses to emergencies after a June 19 incident in Washington in which fighter jets from nearby Andrews Air Force Base were scrambled too late to intercept a small private airplane that wandered into restricted airspace near the White House. President Bush (news-web sites) was in town at the time, but the aircraft, whose pilot was apparently unaware of the restrictions, flew out of the area before Air National Guard jets could intercept it. After the embarrassing incident, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said communications between the Federal Aviation Administration (news-web sites) and the Defense Department would be improved.

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> WASHINGTON (Reuters) – With the anniversary approaching of the Sept. 11 > attacks on America, the U.S. military has resumed 24-hour air patrols by > fighter jets over Washington and New York, U.S. officials said on > Friday.

Instead of striving to remember the victims (and survivors who were traumatized) of the catastrophe, I think that the Bush administration is doing everythingit can to instill fear and keep the threath of terrorism very alive, in order to help justify the unwanted attacks on Irak. While every effort must be made to remember the catastrophe, Bush jr should also diplomatically tell the USA to "get over it, rebuild, and get back to normal". He is doing the very opposite. Bush Jr is to speak at the UN on Sept 12. My fear is that he will not go there to seek support for a future action against irak but rather will go there to explain why he couldn’t wait and had to start attacking Irak on sept 11. Sorry for the criticism here, but of all the countries of the world, the USA isn’t exactly the one who should be telling others that having "weapons of mass destruction" is illegal. If, as long as you don’t use them, having such weapons is acceptable (as is the case for the USA for instance), then as long as Irak doesn’t use whatever it has built, then it should be allowed to have them. If they truly fear Irak, then just place heavy duty surveillance satellites over Irak and intercept any type of weapon Irak sends outside of its own country boudaries. If Hussain uses weapons against his own people, it is a united nations "human rights" issue, not a worldwide security issue.

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Question:

>The Brotherhood Of Man > We hear a great deal these days about the "brotherhood of man." There is an >organization of Christians and Jews which promulgate this theory. In >associating themselves with Jews, Christians are indirectly promoting >atheism, for to advocate brotherhood without Christ is to advocate atheism. > If a Jew can be brother to a Christian without accepting Christ, it means >that God can be his father without accepting Christ. If access to God >without Christ is possible then Christ is unnecessary. If we believe that >Christ is unnecessary, then we are atheists.

False.  Christ was a Jew.  Jews have always believed in ONE God, not three sides to the one God.  Monotheism is just that…MONO.  Read your Ten Commandments: 1) Do not worship any other God but me. 2) Do not make an image to worship. The first means MONOtheism, not Tri-monotheism, if there is such a thing. The second means God only, not Jesus, not any messiah…GOD, the creator and the ONE. Explain how monotheism includes 3 parts, that is tritheism. What do you think?

Response:

The Brotherhood Of Man  We hear a great deal these days about the "brotherhood of man." There is an organization of Christians and Jews which promulgate this theory. In associating themselves with Jews, Christians are indirectly promoting atheism, for to advocate brotherhood without Christ is to advocate atheism.  If a Jew can be brother to a Christian without accepting Christ, it means that God can be his father without accepting Christ. If access to God without Christ is possible then Christ is unnecessary. If we believe that Christ is unnecessary, then we are atheists.  It is deplorable that Christian dupes cannot see through this devilish scheme. The union of Christians with the seed of the serpent, the synagogue of Satan, is an abomination in the sight of God. Some ask, "If the brotherhood of Man is unscriptural, why does the Bible say we are all of one blood as in Acts 17:26?"  People who quote this verse know, or should know, that the word "blood" does not occur in the original and is omitted from the authorized version. Also the neuter gender is used. If man was meant, it would have been in the masculine gender.  The text should be rendered "and hath made of one species all nations of men to dwell…" Homo Sapiens. The same way we refer to the dogs belonging to the canine species. The Jews, as we know, are not included or referred to in this text, as they come under a different classification, the Serpent Race, and are contrary to all men.  Jewish author Maurice Samuel, in his Book, "You Gentiles," page 155 says: "We Jews, we the destroyers, will remain the destroyers forever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will destroy because we need a world of our own." The "Jewish World" of Feb. 9, 1883, stated: "The great ideal of Judaism is that the whole world shall be imbued with Jewish teachings, and that in a Universal Brotherhood of Nations — a greater Judaism, in fact — all the separate races and religions shall disappear." (Jewish World, February 9, 1883)  At this point it is well for us to be reminded of the following excerpt from a report delivered by Mr. Oudendyke, Netherlands Minister at Petrograd, Russia, on Sept. 6, 1918, concerning the situation in Russia. At that time the Netherlands Minister was acting for the British Ambassador and the report was presented to parliament in London. "The foregoing report will indicate the extremely critical nature of the present situation. The danger is now so great that I feel it my duty to call the attention of the British and all other governments to the fact that if an end is not put to Bolshevism in Russia at once, the civilization of the world will be threatened. This is not an exaggeration, but a sober matter of fact; and the most unusual action of German and Austrian consuls-general, before referred to, in joining in protest of Neutral legations appears to indicate that the danger is also being realized in German and Austrian quarters.  I consider that the immediate suppression of Bolshevism is the greatest issue now before the world, not even excluding the war which is still raging, and unless, as above stated, Bolshevism is nipped in the bud immediately, it is bound to spread in one farm or another over Europe and the whole world, as it is organized and worked by the Jews who have no nationality, and whose one object is to destroy for their own ends the existing order of things. The only manner in which this danger could be averted would be the collective action on the part of all powers.  I am also of the opinion that no support whatever should be given to any other socialistic party in Russia, least of all to social revolutionaries, whose policy is at the moment to overthrow the Bolsheviks, but whose aims in reality are the same, visavis, to establish proletariat rule throughout the world. Social revolutionaries will never right nay foreign power, and any profession which they may now make in this sense is merely a tactical move in their struggle with the Bolsheviks."  In the confrontation between the Arabs and the Jews, President Nixon has bluntly informed the American people that we are deeply committed to the Jews. In California and across the nation, tens of thousands of our youth are being brain-washed into taking the mind-destroying drug LSD; and many of these young people are committing suicide, attempting to gouge out their eyes or otherwise maim themselves. And it has been shown that LSD is manufactured in Israel and smuggled into this country.  So why should we be deeply committed to the protection of our worst enemy, an enemy that is not so-secretly destroying us with biochemical warfare? As the result of the study of excerpts from the Talmud, evidence from the Bible, statements from noted non-Jews throughout history, statements from Jews themselves and their leaders, and finally evidence developed by their own scientists in the field of Biology, we are justified in arriving at the following conclusion, namely:  1). That the Jews in their capacity of being "contrary to all men" are in a category not commonly associated with the Biblical concept of the family of man.  2). Christians, by virtue of their acceptance of the sacrifice our Lord Jesus Christ made on the stake, are assured of eternal life. The Jews, being of their "father, the devil," have no such assurance, hence their only concern is with enjoying the "good life" which they now have.  3). That the Jews have a deep and undying hatred of Christians and Christianity in general. Note the hate programs of TV against the Christian people of Germany. It is unceasing and unrelenting. Indeed, it was the Jewish hatred of Christian Germany which brought World War II.  Samuel Untermeyer, president of the World Jewish Economic Federation, upon returning from a world wide meeting of Jews in Amsterdam, Holland, made a speech on radio station WABC, Columbia Broadcasting system in N.Y.C. on Aug. 6, 1933, in which he said the Jews of the world had declared war on Germany and would starve them to death. That was six years before any Jew had been punished and before military war was initiated in 1939. "The Second World War is being fought for the defense of the fundamentals of Judaism." (Statement by Rabbi Felix Mendlesohn, Chicago Sentinel, October 8, 1942)  The founder of the Irgun terrorist organization, Vladimer Jabotinsky, Jewish Communist who wrote in the January issue of Natcha Retch, 1934: "The fight against Germany has been carried on for months by every Jewish community, conference, congress, trade organization, by every Jew in the world. There is reason to believe that our part in this struggle will be of general value. We shall let loose a spiritual and material war of the whole world against Germany’s ambition to become a great nation again, to reconquer her lost territories and colonies. Our Jewish interests on the other hand, demand the complete destruction of Germany. The German nation is collectively and individually a danger to us Jews."  Rabbi M. Perizweig, head of the British section of the World Jewish Congress, speaking in Canada, stated: "The World Jewish Congress has been at war with Germany for seven years." (Toronto Evening Telegram, Feb. 26, 1940)  In Walter Winchell’s column in The Los Angeles Herald-Examiner on Dec. 7, 1966, appeared these words: "Merchants report a boycott of German goods in the U.S."  Despite the fact that Germany and the United States has contributed billions of dollars to keep the economy of Israel alive, there is no gratitude in the breast of the Jews.  4). That upon their heads has come "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:35; Revelation 18:24)

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Question:

Could anybody knows what this tattoo is….it’s some kind of tribal…i saw it on the Max Cavalera’s arm…(Sepultura)…. Please help…… Davorin

Response:

|| Could anybody knows what this tattoo is….it’s some kind of || tribal…i saw it on the Max Cavalera’s arm…(Sepultura)…. || Please help…… || Davorin Cavalera has quite a few tattoo’s on his arms. If you were to find a picture of the one you are speaking of, that would make it a lot easier to tell you what it is…if it’s anything at all.  A lot of Western-"tribal" has little meaning other than decoration. His current band is Soulfly and is a "Christian Band." *Sidenote* The tribal designs may (read: probably) have meaning, the wearer just may not have any idea what it means. Stupid Americans. -Greg — -= Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is one element of faith. =-

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Soulfly and is a "Christian Band." > *Sidenote* The tribal designs may (read: probably) have meaning, the wearer > just may not have any idea what it means. Stupid Americans.

No probably NOT, 99.44% of all "TRIBAL" on a non indigenous person Is nothing more that black squiggly shit.  Gratuitous insult to match yours. Asshole

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|| No probably NOT, 99.44% of all "TRIBAL" on a non indigenous person Is || nothing more that black squiggly shit.  Gratuitous insult to match || yours. Asshole Then you agree that the persons with "Western-Tribal" just have shit on their arms. And since I am from America, I was using Americans as my point of reference. So in effect, you agree. The insult wasn’t gratuitous at all. They are Stupid Americans. That’s not to say that all Americans are stupid. But the ones with "stupid squiggly shit" (not to pick a nit..but it’s not all squiggly. A lot that I have seen have very sharp angles and defined lines, and doesn’t /move back and forth with quick irregular marks/.) -Greg — -= Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is one element of faith. =-

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Yes and No I said that 99.44% of every "tribal" I have seen is black swirly shit. I did not say a thing about western or "American" . even a lot I’ve seen on indigenes is black swirly shit. Calling it "tribal" is what is bullshit. Tribal belongs to "A" tribe. All that being said having black swirly shit on your arm does not make you stupid. If you want black shit on your arm go for it. I personally have a piece on my arm that is made up of traditional Polynesian shapes , and it was even hammered in by hand but it IS NOT tribal. actually it is not even black squiggly shit. it is red and blue trianglely scarred shit

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Question:

> Well….the TV news guy *said* we broke the record in Florida [for the city > of Melbourne, to be exact] so there! > [sticking tongue out]  Aula

to go to the source i.e., http://iwin.nws.noaa.gov/iwin/fl/public.html (and it’s in CAPS because that’s the way the source document was) RERMLB RECORD EVENT REPORT NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MELBOURNE FL 445 PM EDT SUN AUG 1 1999 SOME MORE RECORD HEAT IN EAST-CENTRAL FLORIDA… THE HIGH TEMPERATURE AT DAYTONA BEACH THIS AFTERNOON WAS 99 DEGREES.  THIS IS A NEW RECORD HIGH FOR THE DATE.  THE OLD RECORD WAS 98 DEGREES… WHICH WAS SET IN 1941. THE HIGH TEMPERATURE IN MELBOURNE THIS AFTERNOON WAS ALSO 99 DEGREES. THIS IS A NEW RECORD HIGH FOR MELBOURNE FOR AUGUST 1.  THE OLD RECORD WAS 97 DEGREES SET IN 1961. IN ORLANDO THE HIGH WAS 95 DEGREES.  THE RECORD IS 97 SET IN 1958… SO THERE WAS NOT A RECORD HIGH IN ORLANDO TODAY.: i think that’s hot.  i think we can all agree to that !!  :-)       sleeper (a balmy mid-70’s where sleeper is today!) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ;I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this > ;morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail > ;when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after > ;that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still > ;sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline > ;myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished > ;my other work. > It’s the single largest piece of discipline (next to not smoking) that I > deal with during the day; getting a shower before sitting down to the > laptop. I get up, start the coffee, take my vitamin and then shower. But, > it’s difficult. I do, however, go online and start the newsgroup download > before showering. > ;Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made > ;today, does it? > Not at all. Neither does the trash need to be taken to the bin either. =)

And the dishes don’t need to be washed, the floors just going to get dirty again, the kitty litter can go one more day… on second thought, no it can’t — Paige Proud Mom of Victoria – 15 months Proud to be Outlandish Royal Defender of The Brat There is no "I" in "TEAM"…but there is an "M" and an "E"

Response:

Well….the TV news guy *said* we broke the record in Florida [for the city of Melbourne, to be exact] so there! [sticking tongue out]  Aula – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ;Just to set the record straight guys <g> we set a record in the area of > ;Florida she is in today:  99.  Couple that with the humidity and only the > ;tourists are *outside*.  It did rain here for the first time in a couple > ;weeks, but not enough to do more than wet the dust down.  It is hot!!!! > ;Just ask Michelle when she gets back! > Sidenote: at lunch we discussed the weather and, if I’m not mistaken, the > record for Florida was set in 1952 (47 years ago) at 99 degrees. > Yesterday matched the record, but they’ve not yet beaten it. > Is mise le meas, > | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | > |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | > |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | > |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | > |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

Response:

Actually, I’ve got it lucky right now.  Both girls are in their gymnastics camp until Thursday (but I will come up to see them every day).  And DH just left to see his mother, and won’t be back until Wednesday.  That gives me a full *2* days all by myself!!!  Yea!!  I never thought I’d be so happy to be alone, but it’s the one thing I don’t get very much.  And I can enjoy this knowing everyone else is happy doing what they are doing. So watch out… I have a license to be on my computer for 48 hours solid if I want! Take Care! Vicki Surratt Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ;I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this > ;morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail > ;when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after > ;that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still > ;sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline > ;myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished > ;my other work.   > It’s the single largest piece of discipline (next to not smoking) that I > deal with during the day; getting a shower before sitting down to the > laptop. I get up, start the coffee, take my vitamin and then shower. But, > it’s difficult. I do, however, go online and start the newsgroup download > before showering. > ;Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made > ;today, does it? > Not at all. Neither does the trash need to be taken to the bin either. =) > Is mise le meas, > | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | > |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | > |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | > |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | > |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

Response:

;Just to set the record straight guys <g> we set a record in the area of ;Florida she is in today:  99.  Couple that with the humidity and only the ;tourists are *outside*.  It did rain here for the first time in a couple ;weeks, but not enough to do more than wet the dust down.  It is hot!!!! ;Just ask Michelle when she gets back! Sidenote: at lunch we discussed the weather and, if I’m not mistaken, the record for Florida was set in 1952 (47 years ago) at 99 degrees. Yesterday matched the record, but they’ve not yet beaten it. Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

Response:

;I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this ;morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail ;when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after ;that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still ;sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline ;myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished ;my other work.   It’s the single largest piece of discipline (next to not smoking) that I deal with during the day; getting a shower before sitting down to the laptop. I get up, start the coffee, take my vitamin and then shower. But, it’s difficult. I do, however, go online and start the newsgroup download before showering. ;Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made ;today, does it? Not at all. Neither does the trash need to be taken to the bin either. =) Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

Response:

You’re my missing twin aren’t you! — Shelly H The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried. G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936), British author.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, it’s lovely. Nothing better than going out on the Sea Doo with my > laptop in a knapsack just in case I get email. Or taking a shower while > scanning the newsgroups hoping *SOMEBODY* posted something so I can read > it. Or ICQ’ing a friend in Missouri while driving to the store. Or having > my wife say, "isn’t it a lovely sunrise" as I’m typing a reply and > saying, "tell it to wait just one more second". > But, it’s not an unhealthy addiction. I can stop at anytime. I just > choose not to right now… =) > LOL!!  I certainly can relate!  I don’t have a laptop, thank goodness, > or I’m certain I’d be on here all day long. > I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this > morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail > when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after > that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still > sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline > myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished > my other work. > Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made > today, does it? > Take Care! > Vicki Surratt > Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! > Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com > Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album!

Response:

> Just to set the record straight guys <g> we set a record in the > area of Florida she is in today:  99.  Couple that with the > humidity and only the tourists are *outside*.

the tourists don’t have the luxury of waiting for a ‘nicer’ day to go " *outside* ".   ‘damn it, i paid for florida, we are going to enjoy florida whether it kills us or not !!’       sleeper > It did rain here for the first time in a couple weeks, but not > enough to do more than wet the dust down.  It is hot!!!! > Just ask Michelle when she gets back! > – Aula in sunny sunny sunny, humid, hot, torrid, Florida, > where the natives are hiding in the air-conditioning……

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

> You’re cute Michelle, > I was going to wish you fun & tell you how envious I am but I didn’t think > you were going to check the ng again b/f you left. > Sooo have a GREAT holiday *mommy of 3* I know you deserve it! > BTW each year my holiday has been spent either giving birth or moving, moved > 2 times & gave birth 2 times. I can’t wait til NEXT summer for our first > *real * vacation. > Oh ya, I’m not budging from this house for are least 10 years & no more > kids. We are adding a puppy to our family instead! LOL

Your summers sound like my Christmas’s!  I have either been pregnant or breastfeeding or babysitting for the last three christmas holidays and I’m sure it’s my turn to have fun this year. — Leonie Lawson Co-Creator of Maia Shea (19/11/96) and Casta Grace (9/8/98) dum vivimus, vivamus (while we live, let us live)

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LOL Vickie!!! I can TOTALLY identify w/ you — Grub*67 (remove *no-spam* when replying) "Some people think we put that we put our life on hold to raise a child but we know that to hold a child is life"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, it’s lovely. Nothing better than going out on the Sea Doo with my > laptop in a knapsack just in case I get email. Or taking a shower while > scanning the newsgroups hoping *SOMEBODY* posted something so I can read > it. Or ICQ’ing a friend in Missouri while driving to the store. Or having > my wife say, "isn’t it a lovely sunrise" as I’m typing a reply and > saying, "tell it to wait just one more second". > But, it’s not an unhealthy addiction. I can stop at anytime. I just > choose not to right now… =) > LOL!!  I certainly can relate!  I don’t have a laptop, thank goodness, > or I’m certain I’d be on here all day long. > I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this > morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail > when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after > that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still > sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline > myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished > my other work. > Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made > today, does it? > Take Care! > Vicki Surratt > Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! > Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com > Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album!

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Naw, don’t make the bed, and don’t worry about breakfast – the other folks will scrounge something up….<g> Sounds like our house, except I have to get up before 6 am in order to beat dear hubby to the computer so I can read before I go to work! – Aula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, it’s lovely. Nothing better than going out on the Sea Doo with my > laptop in a knapsack just in case I get email. Or taking a shower while > scanning the newsgroups hoping *SOMEBODY* posted something so I can read > it. Or ICQ’ing a friend in Missouri while driving to the store. Or having > my wife say, "isn’t it a lovely sunrise" as I’m typing a reply and > saying, "tell it to wait just one more second". > But, it’s not an unhealthy addiction. I can stop at anytime. I just > choose not to right now… =) > LOL!!  I certainly can relate!  I don’t have a laptop, thank goodness, > or I’m certain I’d be on here all day long. > I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this > morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail > when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after > that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still > sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline > myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished > my other work. > Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made > today, does it? > Take Care! > Vicki Surratt > Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! > Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com > Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album!

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Just to set the record straight guys <g> we set a record in the area of Florida she is in today:  99.  Couple that with the humidity and only the tourists are *outside*.  It did rain here for the first time in a couple weeks, but not enough to do more than wet the dust down.  It is hot!!!! Just ask Michelle when she gets back! – Aula in sunny sunny sunny, humid, hot, torrid, Florida, where the natives are hiding in the air-conditioning…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to > anybody care?  (wiping my eyes)  I thought at least somebody > would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG.  I am soo > hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel > important.  Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s > post.  See you guys on Friday. > Michelle…….mommy of 3 > how quite pathetic. > you post with pathos and braggadocio of spending endless > hours on wave-swept beaches, in cooling waters, of being a > ’stranger in a strange land’.  while at the same time > yearning for the nearness of your children and all things > familiar. and you expect us to congratulate you–to commiserate > with you–your good fortune or bad luck.  whatever you > consider it to be at any given point in time. > give us a break. > hey, relax folks.   i’m kidding. > lets see how many read this far to figure that out !! > hope you enjoyed yourself, michelle >        sleeper > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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>;You mean your aren’t taking your computer with you so you can post >;here during that vacation?  Of course we will miss you. >I hate to ‘fess up, but when we went to my in-law’s house for the 4th, I >took my laptop with me. I didn’t use it, but I couldn’t bring myself to >leave it home… =)

You share my addiction?  Fun isn’t it?

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;>I hate to ‘fess up, but when we went to my in-law’s house for the 4th, I ;>took my laptop with me. I didn’t use it, but I couldn’t bring myself to ;>leave it home… =) ;> ;You share my addiction?  Fun isn’t it? Oh, it’s lovely. Nothing better than going out on the Sea Doo with my laptop in a knapsack just in case I get email. Or taking a shower while scanning the newsgroups hoping *SOMEBODY* posted something so I can read it. Or ICQ’ing a friend in Missouri while driving to the store. Or having my wife say, "isn’t it a lovely sunrise" as I’m typing a reply and saying, "tell it to wait just one more second". But, it’s not an unhealthy addiction. I can stop at anytime. I just choose not to right now… =) Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

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> I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to > anybody care?  (wiping my eyes)  I thought at least somebody > would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG.  I am soo > hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel > important.  Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s > post.  See you guys on Friday. > Michelle…….mommy of 3

how quite pathetic. you post with pathos and braggadocio of spending endless hours on wave-swept beaches, in cooling waters, of being a ’stranger in a strange land’.  while at the same time yearning for the nearness of your children and all things familiar. and you expect us to congratulate you–to commiserate with you–your good fortune or bad luck.  whatever you consider it to be at any given point in time. give us a break. hey, relax folks.   i’m kidding. lets see how many read this far to figure that out !! hope you enjoyed yourself, michelle        sleeper Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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> Oh, it’s lovely. Nothing better than going out on the Sea Doo with my > laptop in a knapsack just in case I get email. Or taking a shower while > scanning the newsgroups hoping *SOMEBODY* posted something so I can read > it. Or ICQ’ing a friend in Missouri while driving to the store. Or having > my wife say, "isn’t it a lovely sunrise" as I’m typing a reply and > saying, "tell it to wait just one more second". > But, it’s not an unhealthy addiction. I can stop at anytime. I just > choose not to right now… =)

LOL!!  I certainly can relate!  I don’t have a laptop, thank goodness, or I’m certain I’d be on here all day long.   I had to force myself to get my shower BEFORE checking for mail this morning.  I have developed a wonderful little habit of checking the mail when I first get up with the idea that I’d get my shower right after that.  Next thing I know, a couple of hours have passed, and I still sitting there in my nightgown.  Ugh!  I’m now trying to discipline myself to not even LOOK at the computer until I’m dressed and finished my other work.   Okay, so I’ve had a shower.  The bed really doesn’t need to be made today, does it? Take Care! Vicki Surratt Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album!

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;You mean your aren’t taking your computer with you so you can post ;here during that vacation?  Of course we will miss you. I hate to ‘fess up, but when we went to my in-law’s house for the 4th, I took my laptop with me. I didn’t use it, but I couldn’t bring myself to leave it home… =) Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

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You mean your aren’t taking your computer with you so you can post here during that vacation?  Of course we will miss you. Dorothy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody eyes) >I >thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG. I >am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. >Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on >Friday. >Michelle…….mommy of 3

Response:

> I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody > thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG.  I > am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. > Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on > Friday. > Michelle…….mommy of 3

Of course we care.  In fact, not only do I care, I’m jealous too.  Happy now? — Paige Proud Mom of Victoria – 15 months Proud to be Outlandish Royal Defender of The Brat There is no "I" in "TEAM"…but there is an "M" and an "E"

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;I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody ;thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG.  I ;am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. ;Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on ;Friday.   I sent you email, didn’t you get it? Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA   | |   Visit me @ http://welcome.to/mcpiarais && http://welcome.to/gaeilge  | |        "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"        | |   Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day    | |   storage fee to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email.   |

Response:

You’re cute Michelle, I was going to wish you fun & tell you how envious I am but I didn’t think you were going to check the ng again b/f you left. Sooo have a GREAT holiday *mommy of 3* I know you deserve it! BTW each year my holiday has been spent either giving birth or moving, moved 2 times & gave birth 2 times. I can’t wait til NEXT summer for our first *real * vacation. Oh ya, I’m not budging from this house for are least 10 years & no more kids. We are adding a puppy to our family instead! LOL — Grub*67 (remove *no-spam* when replying) "Some people think we put that we put our life on hold to raise a child but we know that to hold a child is life"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody eyes)  I > thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG. I > am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. > Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on > Friday. > Michelle…….mommy of 3

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I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG.  I am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on Friday.   Michelle…….mommy of 3

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We’re all jealous that you are going on vacation, therefore nobody is speaking! (winkwink)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody eyes)  I > thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG. I > am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. > Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on > Friday. > Michelle…….mommy of 3

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>I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody >I >thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG.  I >am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. >Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on >Friday.   >Michelle…….mommy of 3

I love you and I will miss you, even though we don’t know each other, I hope you have a wonderful vacation and soak up some rays for me and play on the Laura   — Wicked Witch of the Net — A true friend stabs you in the front– Oscar Wilde — Mother to Melissa (age 4.5) Alex (4 months old) and Meowmee to Geoffery,Precious,Punaan, and Little One,  Wife to John and owner of JLMA productions  

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Now now, we were still trying to pry our eyelids open and pour the java down our gaping maws when we read your post.  really.  If you meander further south I’ll wave at ya!  [and, yes I will miss your comments!] enjoy your vacation, but prepare to run into the air.  IT"S HOT DOWN HERE RIGHT NOW! – Aula in Central Florida

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am leaving this afternoon for Daytona Beach and I wanted to let everybody eyes)  I > thought at least somebody would tell me they’d miss my presence in the NG. I > am soo hurt.  Not really, but PLEASE tell me bye and make me feel important. > Ha!  I’ll miss getting online hearing everybody’s post.  See you guys on > Friday. > Michelle…….mommy of 3

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Question:

Hey, I’m new here, and this is prolly a *very* old question for youse guys. But I’d like to ask it anyways. Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser removal of a former lover’s tattoo? It was an elaborate design indicating my ownership of her, body and soul. Except the ownership now turns out to have been a lot more temporary than we thought, partially because she started toying with new religious/philosophical stances (long story, and you don’t want to hear it), but mostly because she couldn’t deal with jealousy issues involving my new slave. Anyways, she now wants out. Simply reconfiguring the tattoo doesn’t appeal to her. (The cheap solution to ANY problem never appealed to her, which is one reason I’m glad to have a sub who is a little more compliant.) Basically, she wants retroactive virginity, sorta like Britain’s Liz I. Lasers would seem the way to go, from a quality standpoint. But money is a problem. She ain’t got none, and demands that I pay for the job. Personally, I would prefer a removal method that is cheaper, and would leave a nice scar, preferably something painful. Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost hire a hit man for that kinda $$$. (Just kidding. Hey, should that be "hit person" in the modern era? Just because I’m a Sadist doesn’t mean I don’t mind my feminism…) Villon

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>Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m >looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost >hire >a hit man for that kinda $$$. >(Just kidding. Hey, should that be "hit person" in the modern era? Just >because I’m a Sadist doesn’t mean I don’t mind my feminism…) >Villon

Honestly, aside from finding your whole post very disturbing I think you should help with the removal, leaving a permenant mark on anyones body is wrong when it is not initiated by the recipient, and coercing them into it is equal to rape. Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean that you own the individual in question. As for her  feelings changing with the introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may have been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages the feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" the underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and as such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be lucky to get even that. Chumley The Happy Clown Master Piercee BMSGU Chicago Charter I am from Chicago, but I am not a contingent. To reply via E-Mail remove the <tumor>

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"Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser removal of a former lover’s tattoo?" <snip> "ownership of her" <snip> "Am I under any obligation, here?" <snip> Not being into bdsm but having respect for other human beings and their choices , I’ll try to remain objective… However you  don’t  deserve any respect and certainly don’t know how to earn it , A loving , caring top would know the meaning of RESPONSABILITY. i bet this word doesn’t belong to your vocabulary????? CONSCIENCE doesn’t either???? You fit the kind of people I’d reffer to a psychiatrist….as abusive AND delusional… Try to be decent at least once and pay to help remove trace of your stupidity… good luck to your ex… corine

Response:

After reading the responses here, i’d suggest you cross-post to ssbb if you want a more bdsm-friendly response (although you might get flamed there too, depending on people’s moods … but who knows?). Assuming you were both consenting adults, clear in your communication and expectations of each other and things still didn’t work out (for whatever reason), i don’t believe You have a responsibility to pay for the removal of the tattoo. And now that i seem to have stepped into it with both feet (omg, is this my official "delurk"?  oh sh*t!  *chuckle*) … yes, i am a slave and yes, i do consider myself owned by my Master (better still, He considers that he owns me ).  Do i bear His permanent mark yet?  No.  Have we talked about it? Yes.  Will i, when the time comes, accept His mark, be it a tattoo and/or special piercing?  Absolutely.  But with both eyes open and knowing that there are few certainties in the world, particularly with relationships. And one last word concerning polyamory, since that seems to have set some people off (as if the whole SM and potential for abuse didn’t) … it’s not for everyone.  But i do know people for whom it works very well.  Again, it’s a communication thing.  It’s also a maturity thing (for all involved parties).  Don’t be so quick to judge just because it’s not for you. — shining-one{WH} property of her beloved Master Whiphand (that’s her … the "mouthy" one trying to look "innocent")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m >looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost >hire >a hit man for that kinda $$$. >(Just kidding. Hey, should that be "hit person" in the modern era? Just >because I’m a Sadist doesn’t mean I don’t mind my feminism…) >Honestly, aside from finding your whole post very disturbing I think you should >help with the removal, leaving a permenant mark on anyones body is wrong when >it is not initiated by the recipient, and coercing them into it is equal to >rape. Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean >that you own the individual in question. As for her  feelings changing with the >introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may have >been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages the >feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" the >underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and as >such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be >lucky to get even that.

*** We are responsible for our own bodies. If I allow my Mistress to brand her initial on my ass, that is MY problem, not hers. The shifting of responsibility is pathetic. "my command"? She coulda told him to fuck off. Let’s see…. "command", make the appointment, drive to the artist… Ample opportunity to say "No". I am assuming the bottom was over 21. k e i t h   a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a  p  p     n  y  c – e n d   o f   t r a n s m i s s i o n –

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> >Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m >looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost >hire >a hit man for that kinda $$$. > Honestly, aside from finding your whole post very disturbing I think you should > help with the removal, leaving a permenant mark on anyones body is wrong when > it is not initiated by the recipient, and coercing them into it is equal to > rape.

Now hold on thar, pardner. I didn’t coerce the damn thing. No-one held a pistol to her head. We had discussed previously whether she would wear my mark; we collaborated on the design. I can assure you that jenny (that’s what I’ll call she-who-demands-removal) was a willing participant. Yeah, it was "at my command" because this was the sort of S/m thang where it was *all* at my command. But if she didn’t explicitly wannit, I wouldn’t have commanded it, ya dig? Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean > that you own the individual in question.

Actually, we did use the words "own, body and soul." But I viddy your point. Believe me, the idea of (fr’instance) drugging her and forcing her to wear my tat is as disgusting to me as it would be to you. Truth is, *she* was the one who was all like, "Let’s go! Let’s go!" She was "commanded" in the same sense you might ask a starving person at the dinner table to dig in. That clear things up for you, Chumley? As for her  feelings changing with the > introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may have > been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages the > feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" the > underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and as > such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be > lucky to get even that.

Hmmm. Gotta admit, you open up a very interesting can-o-worms here. I mean, she was the one who started backsliding into the Jesusmania of her kinfolk, but to this day I can’t tell if this pseudo-conversion was cause or effect. Point is, I had always talked about my need for additional slaves, and I thought she accepted this potential. But maybe she didn’t foreseee the level of commitment between ms. newgirl and myself. At any rate, *she* broke off her contract with me. So there’s still a heavy resentment factor on my part, ’cause for all our probs, I didn’t want to see her go. And now I’m to be saddled with the bill. So you really think I changed the equation, even though I tried to be upfront with jenny? I’d like other opinions on that, though perhaps this is not the best forum for it. And just in case the group mind judges that responsibility does indeed belong with yers truly, can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive place for tat removal in the San Diego/Inland Empire area? Or maybe Arizona, since ms. j now spends much time there. Villon

Response:

writes: >*** We are responsible for our own bodies. If I allow my Mistress to >brand her initial on my ass, that is MY problem, not hers. >The shifting of responsibility is pathetic. >"my command"? She coulda told him to fuck off. >Let’s see…. "command", make the appointment, drive to >the artist… Ample opportunity to say "No". >I am assuming the bottom was over 21.

Allright, in consideration of the original post is it not apparent that the bottom in question is not real sure of herself, and therefore is not truly into the scene. When the individuals in question are truly aware and certain of themselves then yes accountability is on the recipient. However can you deny that many bottoms (notice I do not say all or even most) are very unsure of themselves and will find their identity through someone else at least for short periods of time. In the more mainstream culture this is why so many women and even some men end up in abusive relationships repeatedly making the same mistake. Back to BDSM this scene caters to the abuse seeker fortunately it is often in a controlled situation and little real harm will result. Due to the tone of the post I am making a guess that the poster seeks out these abuse seekers and thrives off taking advantage of the individuals in question. This too is not uncommon in the scene. This is not a blanket statement but merely a truth. It is the responsibilty of the top to assure that the bottom is in fact certain, especially when a permanent labeling is in question. In this case it would appear as though the top simply used his position as the dominant personality to "persuade" the bottom into something that should not have even been considered in a newer relationship. Had he at any time mentioned that she had brought up the idea then I would agree with you that it is her problem. Under the circumstances and with the information given I really do not think she was truly an advocate of BDSM. BDSM can be a wonderfull thing for those that belong in the scene but the practitioners should also be very aware of the underlying emotional traumas that may lead an individual to experiment and while being supportive or helpfull, they should not make assumptions that another is as into it as they are. Think of it this way, a young lad gets his first GF’s name tattoo’ed on his arm not as a show of love but because he is told by her that if he doesn’t he will never get any. To an 18 year old, unsure of himself, this seems like a simple and easy means of assuring a lasting relationship. he gets it and the relationship falls apart soon after because she knows she owns him, now he has to explain jennifer in big bold letters for the rest of his life. He fucked up. But she is still to blame at least in part because she put the ultimatum on the table. No one should be taken advantage of. Not everyone has the strength to say "No fuck off" it doesn’t make them less human. I’ll stop now before I start repeating myself Chumley The Happy Clown Master Piercee BMSGU Chicago Charter I am from Chicago, but I am not a contingent. To reply via E-Mail remove the <tumor>

Response:

I think we should all just be thankful that these two half-wits are no longer together, and hence, not in danger of breeding. |+/-1 — We have to spread this around! Great! Let’s put it on the InterNet! No. We have to reach people who’s opinions actually matter.                                 -the Simpsons

Response:

>Think of it this way, a young lad gets his first GF’s name tattoo’ed on his arm >not as a show of love but because he is told by her that if he doesn’t he will >never get any.

*** Good analogy, but then the person is deprived of the valuable lesson of Thinking For One’s Self. I understand all your points. I still feel you are responsable for yer own damn ass. Now if this Top was Unsafe, Unsane and Unconsensual, of course I’d be singing a different tune. But he sounded reasonable. I’d _really_ like to see her post. k e i t h   a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a  p  p     n  y  c – e n d   o f   t r a n s m i s s i o n –

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>After reading the responses here, i’d suggest you cross-post to ssbb if you >want a more bdsm-friendly response

actually, quite alot of people here are into bdsm, including several of those who replied to the thread… >And now that i seem to have stepped into it with both feet (omg, is this my >official "delurk"?  oh sh*t!  *chuckle*)

Well, in any case, Welcome!  If you haven’t stumbled across the FAQs yet, do check out the links in my .sig, particularly the Welcome FAQ which will give you a good intro to the group. happy delurking! heidi — http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~heidi   RAB FAQS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart RAB Welcome FAQ: http://members.aol.com/ta2intl/welcome.html

Response:

<Snip> >Now hold on thar, pardner. I didn’t coerce the damn thing. No-one held a >pistol to her head. We had discussed previously whether she would wear my >mark; we collaborated on the design. I can assure you that jenny (that’s what >I’ll call she-who-demands-removal) was a willing participant. >Yeah, it was "at my command" because this was the sort of S/m thang where it >was *all* at my command. But if she didn’t explicitly wannit, I wouldn’t have >commanded it, ya dig?

Now, ya gotta tell us these things, when asking a ethical question the details are important. >Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean > that you own the individual in question. >Actually, we did use the words "own, body and soul." But I viddy your point. >Believe me, the idea of (fr’instance) drugging her and forcing her to wear my >tat is as disgusting to me as it would be to you. Truth is, *she* was the one >who was all like, "Let’s go! Let’s go!" She was "commanded" in the same sense >you might ask a starving person at the dinner table to dig in. >That clear things up for you, Chumley?

I use the phrase "Mind, Body and Soul myself" Your original post’s tone left me thinking she was literally a cast off possion cause it didn’t work as well anymore, This post is considerably less disturbing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->As for her  feelings changing with the > introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may >have > been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages >the > feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" >the > underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and >as > such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be > lucky to get even that. >Hmmm. Gotta admit, you open up a very interesting can-o-worms here. I mean, >she was the one who started backsliding into the Jesusmania of her kinfolk, >but to this day I can’t tell if this pseudo-conversion was cause or effect. >Point is, I had always talked about my need for additional slaves, and I >thought she accepted this potential. But maybe she didn’t foreseee the level >of commitment between ms. newgirl and myself.

Often sliding into a Religion is again a matter of gaining identity, she didn’t find it in the scene, so she looked in a different location. The newgirl very likely was more a catalyst then a cause. >At any rate, *she* broke off her contract with me. So there’s still a heavy >resentment factor on my part, ’cause for all our probs, I didn’t want to see >her go. And now I’m to be saddled with the bill.

I understand the resentment factor all too well. In light of the slightly more in depth view of the situation, I would be a bit more hesitant to saddle you with the bill. A slave leaving because the situation changed is not the same thing as say a normal or abnormal breakup. This is beginning to sound more like the latter of the two. I can say you’re probably lucky to have her leave. Things could have gotten much uglier if she stayed, especially if she turned vindictive. >So you really think I changed the equation, even though I tried to be upfront >with jenny? I’d like other opinions on that, though perhaps this is not the >best forum for it.

I know a whole lot of people that supposedly have open relationships, so far about half have ended in divorce, a several most likely will, and two couples for all intents seem to be suceeding at it. I realize there may be a lot more couples out there then two that can suceed in an open situation, but that couple has to be very strong and both have to be certain of the situation. It is much easier to agree to something if you don’t think it will actually happen. Perhaps it’s only denial on the part of the reluctant partner. In either case my experience points to open relationships being somewhat toxic to any but the most well suited of couples. The truly difficult catch here is that judging a relationship that you are a part of is very hard to do, we all tend to put our own beliefs on our partner at least in our heads. >And just in case the group mind judges that responsibility does indeed belong >with yers truly, can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive place for tat >removal in the San Diego/Inland Empire area? Or maybe Arizona, since ms. j >now spends much time there. >Villon

As for letting the NG decide, we are merely a bunch of enthusiasts from various walks of life, we are not a consortium of rule makers. Do what you feel is right, remember none of us were there, nor have we seen the tattoo in question. Ultimately  in my mind it comes down to did you in anyway coerce the tat into existence, if so you share some responsibility, if not you are blameless. If all things are knowingly consensual then any responsibility by the top ends when the bottom is no longer in a postition to be controlled. Marking or branding may be a cloudy issue at bes,. the only thing I can say is that as a top be carefull don’t allow marking on a sub that is not 100% into it. I really think there should be a battery of psychological testing before any relationship should be allowed to exist. As always the above is nothing but the ramblings of a clown, Chumley The Happy Clown Master Piercee BMSGU Chicago Charter I am from Chicago, but I am not a contingent. To reply via E-Mail remove the <tumor>

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"Truth is, *she* was the one who was all like, "Let’s go! Let’s go!" She was "commanded" in the same sense you might ask a starving person at the dinner table to dig in." As the Clown said , i also, wished I had more pieces of the puzzle before responding to your posting, the tone of it was so cynical and disrespectful… it didn’t seem she had much choice. If it was an agreed thing and now, it looks just that (and i feel bad about flaming someone who don’t deserve it), the paying thing about removal of mark is up to you, The fact that you posted about it suggest you do feel some responsability? so, helping pay could get you freedom again, (she goes on/ you go on) Again, I resent hurting people feelings, especially about lifestyles and acceptance of differences: it’s just that i professionally see a lot of abused people….and you didn’t gave us all clues… Corine

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>Quick recap, in the interest of bandwidth. >Villon’s sub got his mark, per his command. >Said sub no longer wants said permanent mark, and per Villon’s version* wants >Villon to pay for removal. >Lots of feathers ruffled over this one! regarding ethics, legality, etc.

My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s over. — Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

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Rodger wrote >My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over.

I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle. ==== FAQs: http://www.achilles.net/~dextra/spako http://www.eskimo.com/~rab/faqpage.html – list of all RAB FAQs" "Oh, he knew what he was doing, even IF he was being led by Mr. Helmet Head"

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"Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser removal of a former lover’s tattoo?" Boy! this posting did made some emotions loose… Now that quite a few people ventilated their opinions on that matter, one thing remain in my (humble?) opinion: A miscalculation on your part. I understand there is a great responsability for a top that goes with a lot of psychological insight .Seems to me you misjudged eargerness for readyness..(..in your partner) That would make you partly responsible? Corine.

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>My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over.

*** That is far from a "fact". It is no more theatre to some people than "vanilla" is to others. Safe, Sane and Consensual. If the bottom was uncoerced, all’s fair. The bottom hopefully learned a lesson. Or two. That’s life. She found the Lord, she’ll be fine. Right? k e i t h   a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a  p  p     n  y  c – e n d   o f   t r a n s m i s s i o n –

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>Rodger wrote >My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over. >I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle.

All good things come to an end. — Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

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>>My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over. >*** That is far from a "fact". It is no more theatre to some people >than "vanilla" is to others.

More people who seem to be forgetting to use removeable grease paint. Don’t forget that in every bdsm scene the bottom has some word or gesture to use that says "I’ve had enough, stop -right- -now-." At least, in every bdsm scene enacted by people who know what they are doing. Can we say "theatre"? There, I knew you could do it. I’m proud of you, chief! > Safe, Sane and Consensual. >If the bottom was uncoerced, all’s fair. The bottom >hopefully learned a lesson. Or two.

Somehow, one suspects she didn’t. >That’s life. She found the Lord, she’ll be fine. Right?

If you say so, Keith. I would -never- dispute what you say. — Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

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> Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser > removal of a former lover’s tattoo? > It was an elaborate design indicating my ownership of her, body and soul. > Except the ownership now turns out to have been a lot more temporary than we > thought, partially because she started toying with new religious/philosophical > stances (long story, and you don’t want to hear it), but mostly because she > couldn’t deal with jealousy issues involving my new slave.

Hmmm…sounds like, The Slave Girl of Gor, anyone read THAT book long ago? Not only was she branded, and learned to love it, but eventually subjected to rape and being sold off, being one of just many girls for a male’s use.. And in this book the female, once proud and proper, learned to LOVE the depth of the feelings of helplessness and powerlessness. But, the book is a male fantasy. Maybe it is even a female FANTASY. The ability to adapt to the most horrifying situations which life can throw at you and still to bounce upright and even to enjoy what happens next. This post really drives home the importance of choosing extrememly intelligient and CARING partners in life. Talking out what is aceptable and what hurts, emotionally, safe words and then the respecting of safe words. Creating a scene which a person can abort and quickly obtain cuddles and safety. In my opinion, your ex girlfriend would be better off to cut bait and bail on you. Completely. She can count this as a lesson learned, pay for the removal of the tat herself and consider herself damn lucky to be out of a life scene which has you in it. Next time I hope that she chooses a more quality person with which to explore and master such primal emotions. Laura — Laura Gitchel http://pobox.com/~gitchel/laura/

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> Now hold on thar, pardner. I didn’t coerce the damn thing. No-one held a > pistol to her head. We had discussed previously whether she would wear my > mark; we collaborated on the design. I can assure you that jenny (that’s what > I’ll call she-who-demands-removal) was a willing participant.

Mice will walk over an electrified grid to get cocaine, and they will kill themselves this way. People who are recovoering from both sexual and cocaine addictions will tell you that sexual addiction is far harder to kick. The hormones which the brain releases during sexual arousal are profoundly powerful. You didn’t hold a gun to her head. You and she set loose a cascade of chemicals far more powerful than gun powder. > Yeah, it was "at my command" because this was the sort of S/m thang where it > was *all* at my command. But if she didn’t explicitly wannit, I wouldn’t have > commanded it, ya dig?

Your cavalier attitude suggests that you’re a moron. Have a nice day. Laura — Laura Gitchel http://pobox.com/~gitchel/laura/

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To Chumley and the others, Thanks for the info, the opinions, and even the flames. The flames, I guess, resulted from a lack of detail in my original post, and from an undertone of resentment which I didn’t see at the time of writing. I’m still peeved at jenny: Losing a lady to another guy is one thing, but losing her to a 2000-year- old con game REALLY sux. And yet I miss her still, no matter how I try to affect a veneer of Toppish disdain. Hey, I’m only praeter-human, right? > I understand the resentment factor all too well. In light of the slightly more > in depth view of the situation, I would be a bit more hesitant to saddle you > with the bill. A slave leaving because the situation changed is not the same > thing as say a normal or abnormal breakup. This is beginning to sound more like > the latter of the two. I can say you’re probably lucky to have her leave. > Things could have gotten much uglier if she stayed, especially if she turned > vindictive.

Ah, they always tell ya: "You’re better off without her." And they are always right when they say this. And they are always impossible to listen to when they say this. At any rate, I’m leaning toward paying the tat removal bill, as funds permit — out of generosity, not obligation. The gesture might facilitate healing. Again, folks, thanks much for the advice, which helped me make this decision. > I really think there should be a battery of psychological testing before any > relationship should be allowed to exist.

And many relationships are themselves a form of battery. Would that it were otherwise.

Response:

>>*** That is far from a "fact". It is no more theatre to some people >than "vanilla" is to others. >More people who seem to be forgetting to use removeable grease paint. >Don’t forget that in every bdsm scene the bottom has some word or >gesture to use that says "I’ve had enough, stop -right- -now-."

*** I don’t know Rodger, here in NYC I know a dozen couples, hetero and homo, who don’t use safe words. Who have been together many years and where the bottom wears a mark. >At least, in every bdsm scene enacted by people who know what they are >doing. Can we say "theatre"? There, I knew you could do it. I’m proud >of you, chief!

*** So, yer saying that the tattoo, brand or cut worn by every bottom was put there against their will? LIFE is theatre, All the worlds a STAGE. Can we say "patronizing"? There I knew you could do it. I’m proud of you, pal! > Safe, Sane and Consensual. >If the bottom was uncoerced, all’s fair. The bottom >hopefully learned a lesson. Or two. >Somehow, one suspects she didn’t.

*** Somehow, one hopes she did. If not, must we feel bad? >That’s life. She found the Lord, she’ll be fine. Right? >If you say so, Keith. I would -never- dispute what you say.

*** Sure you -would- and I’d have it no other way. k e i t h   a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a  p  p     n  y  c @ D V 8 – e n d   o f   t r a n s m i s s i o n –

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> To Chumley and the others, > Thanks for the info, the opinions, and even the flames. The flames, I guess, > resulted from a lack of detail in my original post, and from an undertone of > resentment which I didn’t see at the time of writing. I’m still peeved at > jenny: Losing a lady to another guy is one thing, but losing her to a > 2000-year- old con game REALLY sux. And yet I miss her still, no matter how I > try to affect a veneer of Toppish disdain. Hey, I’m only praeter-human, > right?

Weird. Yer the one who brought in a new lady and thus destabilized the relationship, no? And yer mad Jenny, right? Fusing with a power larger than ones self is part of the way a person heals when she has been displaced and become nonspecial to a lover. And why in the world would you disdain religion (2,000 year old con game) when it is one of those factors which creates conflict and longing and meaning and depth in a person to such a degree as to make lovemaking downright delicious? Oh well, to each his own. Good luck. Laura — Laura Gitchel http://pobox.com/~gitchel/laura/

Response:

>Rodger wrote >My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over. >I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle.

Not necessarily.  There appear to be two camps, each claiming it’s superiourity, and validity- thee lifestylers, and thee players. Players enjoy their games when it suits them, lifestylers live it 24/7.  Please note that I am desperately trying to stay objective, having been embroiled in furious argumentts as to thee relative merits or flaws ov both. As for thee whole ethicality ov thee situation in discusison, I think it incredibly pretentious and presumptious ov any ov us to judge, not knowing thee entire history ov both parties and thee relationship. For someone to say that women in submissive relationships are really submitting to abuse, and that tops in such situations are like some kindov predator feeding off such victims is truly close-minded and prejudiced.  Certainly there exist such people, but who are we to know that thee poster is one ov such people?   It’s too easy to maintain a moral high-ground when looking in from thee outside.  Let’s save thee indignation for Todd Bertrang <g>. "Let us dream of evanescence, and linger in the beautiful foolishness of things" —Kakuzo Okakura, _The Book of Tea_    Denise Robinson, CEO Ambient Inc.    www.ambient.on.ca

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It appears to me as if your lady friend has forgotten or over looked numbers 1,5,7,8 in the submissive’s creed.  I believe the removal of the tattoo is on her. Submissive’s creed:     1. I will communicate with complete honesty my needs, desires, limits, and experience. I realize that failing to do so will not only prevent my Top and I from from having the best experience possible, but can also lead to physical and emotional harm.     2. I will not try to manipulate my Top. I will not push to make a scene go the way I feel it should. In other words, I will not top from the bottom.     3. I will keep an open mind about trying things that I am not comfortable with and expanding my limits. I will continue to grow as a submissive and as a human being.     4. I will accept the responsibility of discovering what pleases my Top, and will do my best to fulfil his wishes and desires.     5. I will not allow myself to be harmed or abused. I know that submissive does not equal doormat.     6. I will be courteous and helpful to my fellow submissives. I will share my knowledge and experience with others in the hope that they will learn and benefit from where I have been. I will take the time to help those new to the scene start out on the correct path.     7. I will be responsive to my Top. I will not try to hide what my mind and body are feeling so that I may assist him in his responsibilities as my authority. I know that Dominants are not telepaths, and will not expect my Top to know thoughts or feelings which I do not share.     8. I will accept in the responsibility of a scene or relationship gone bad. I will not place total blame on my Top when it is not warranted simply because he is the Dominant. I realize that things may not work out as they should at times, and will do my best to put it behind me and move on.     9. I will give my gift of submission only to those that can responsibly accept and desire to receive. I will not place anyone in the position of Topping me non-consensually, nor will I give my respect to someone that has not earned it.     10. I know that D/s is not a contest, and will never think myself a "better" submissive because I choose to submit on a different level than another. I will not be boastful of the experiences I have had as a bottom.     11. I will be obedient to my Top even if I disagree with what he is requesting. I realize he has my best interests at heart and often knows better than I what I need in a particular situation.     12. I know that my actions reflect upon my Top, and will do my best to help others see him in a positive way. I will not intentionally embarrass or displease my Dominant.     13. Above all, I will wear my title of submissive with honor. I will never cause others to think that being submissive means to be weak or sub-human. I will take pride in who and what I am and will never show myself in a negative way.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Rodger wrote >>My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >>BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >>I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >>over. >I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle. >Not necessarily.  There appear to be two camps, each claiming it’s >superiourity, and validity- thee lifestylers, and thee players. >Players enjoy their games when it suits them, lifestylers live it >24/7.  Please note that I am desperately trying to stay objective, >having been embroiled in furious argumentts as to thee relative merits >or flaws ov both. >As for thee whole ethicality ov thee situation in discusison, I think >it incredibly pretentious and presumptious ov any ov us to judge, not >knowing thee entire history ov both parties and thee relationship. >For someone to say that women in submissive relationships are really >submitting to abuse, and that tops in such situations are like some >kindov predator feeding off such victims is truly close-minded and >prejudiced.  Certainly there exist such people, but who are we to know >that thee poster is one ov such people? >It’s too easy to maintain a moral high-ground when looking in from >thee outside.  Let’s save thee indignation for Todd Bertrang <g>. >"Let us dream of evanescence, and linger in the beautiful foolishness of

things" —Kakuzo Okakura, _The Book of Tea_ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   Denise Robinson, CEO Ambient Inc. >   www.ambient.on.ca

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Question:

WAIT A MINUTE!!!! You plead NOT GUILTY… and did NOT get a trial…was sentenced… and paid a fine…. Something is WAY wrong….. You should have gotten a trial. Even if it was a phony trial…. you should have gotten one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is an update to my post: > I went to the court on the day and was really thrilled/ticked to see > the cop there. Acc. to the list posted outside, he had about 30-40 > "victims" under his name.  Of course he is going to show up to earn his > and his buddies pays. > The judge called my name, so Mr. .., rolling stop, plead guilty or not > guilty.  I said "not guilty" and then uttered a sentence "and my record > is clean"… he said $50.00 and court supervision. I wanted to resist > this $50 but didn’t want to pick an argument with his highness.  It took > about 5-10 sec for the system to get $50 of my hard earned money.  The > cop was sitting and smiling on his accomplishments.  He wasted two hours > of my time (not counting countless moments thinking about this ordeal) > but at least I could say I pleaded "not guilty" and saved about $25-$50 > in the fine and four hour of mental torture (aka driving school). > While in the line waiting to pay, I started talking to others.  They all > were ticketed by the same cop, on the same stop sign around the same > time (~9AM) on different days.  What a coincedence or should I call it > what a racket! This is easy money for the system. > Things like these really make you wonder about the fairness of this > system.  I had a high respect for these cops trying to their job but > have lost some since this episode. > Thanks for reading this… Hopefully nonone comes after me from the > system for denigrating the system;-) > Bye for now. > >  I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was > failing > > to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an > interesection > > (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the > > oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain > myself. > > I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when > they > > called out my name). > > It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps > > unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in > court > > awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my > area) > > during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as > you show > > up. > I never really thought of court quite like this… but it does make > sense after > I think about it. You sit around in a room filled to over capacity > with people > that haven’t bathed in weeks (or even seen water in weeks), that have > shoes with > no soles, that are missing two teeth, have ratted hair…. yep… > that’s got to > be it. That’s the idea behind "mail-in" tickets. If you can afford it, > you mail > it in. If not, it’s not worth the State’s bother to try to force > collection. > What a racket. > — > Michael A. Stone Jr. > The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets > http://home.att.net/~speeding > Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". > – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet > "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in > accidents than relatively high speed drivers." > – Cirillo (1968) > (from  http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) > Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a > long-term > positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. > – The Highway Safety Deskbook > (from > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 ) > Before you buy.

– Michael A. Stone Jr. The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets http://home.att.net/~speeding Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in accidents than relatively high speed drivers." – Cirillo (1968) (from  http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a long-term positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. – The Highway Safety Deskbook (from  http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 )

Response:

[snip] >That is both fascinating and horrifying!! >Anybody on this NG from California?

Yes.  California LEOs have been coming down hard on rolling stops (the old "California stop") for a few years now, and it will cost a lot more than the $50 the original poster got dinged for. >I’d sure like to know if that is the case here. >Haven’t had any tickets in ages, but you never know! >Where I live, you’re pretty well dead if you get a ticket.  The >correspondence all goes to a money-extraction machine in another >community.  It IS possible to set up a court date after a lot of bck >and forth; have never followed it through, since I don’t get tickets >(knock on wood), but wonder if one does have a chance.

That’s about right, the commissioner is trying to dispose of cases as fast as possible, and LEOs get overtime for court appearances, so the old dodge of hoping the officer doesn’t show up is a longshot at best. There have been some successful challenges to red light violations captured on camera, usually based on the photo not being clear enough to identify the driver (or identifying someone else as the driver) or timing problems involving the equipment. Check out the Orange County Register morgue for stories on the red light cameras in San Juan Capistrano for specifics. >Moving violations used to be infractions (IIRC) but now have been >moved to a different level — sorry, don’t remember the details — >which makes it much harder to fight them and/or get traffic school.

No, they’re still infractions in California, but the traffic school option isn’t that attractive anymore — you have to request adjudication to traffic school and pay a fee that’s $24 more than the fine would have been. DMV and AAA now contend that traffic school doesn’t do any good (doesn’t reduce repeat violation rates), so look for a move to repeal it altogether some distance down the road. >Your input solicited. >– >Polar

Not a lawyer, but willing to split hairs anytime. — Chris Green

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->is clean"… he said $50.00 and court supervision. I wanted to resist >this $50 but didn’t want to pick an argument with his highness.  It took >about 5-10 sec for the system to get $50 of my hard earned money.  The >In at least some jurisdictions, part of the money collected in fines >and court costs from guilty parties goes to the judge’s and the cop’s >retirement funds.  Both general retirement funds and individual funds >for the specific public "servant" doing the deed may be involved. >Seems like a pretty clear conflict of interest, since under such >circumstances it is in the cop’s and judge’s financial interest to >convict.  (I have a friend who is currently researching this issue >in conjunction with fighting a traffic ticket he received recently.) >In order to understand how anything really works, you have to >follow the money trail…

That is both fascinating and horrifying!! Anybody on this NG from California? I’d sure like to know if that is the case here. Haven’t had any tickets in ages, but you never know! Where I live, you’re pretty well dead if you get a ticket.  The correspondence all goes to a money-extraction machine in another community.  It IS possible to set up a court date after a lot of bck and forth; have never followed it through, since I don’t get tickets (knock on wood), but wonder if one does have a chance. Moving violations used to be infractions (IIRC) but now have been moved to a different level — sorry, don’t remember the details — which makes it much harder to fight them and/or get traffic school. Your input solicited. — Polar

Response:

>  I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was failing > to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an interesection > (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the > oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain myself. > I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when they > called out my name). > It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps > unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in court > awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my area) > during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as you show > up.

I never really thought of court quite like this… but it does make sense after I think about it. You sit around in a room filled to over capacity with people that haven’t bathed in weeks (or even seen water in weeks), that have shoes with no soles, that are missing two teeth, have ratted hair…. yep… that’s got to be it. That’s the idea behind "mail-in" tickets. If you can afford it, you mail it in. If not, it’s not worth the State’s bother to try to force collection. What a racket. — Michael A. Stone Jr. The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets http://home.att.net/~speeding Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in accidents than relatively high speed drivers." – Cirillo (1968) (from  http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a long-term positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. – The Highway Safety Deskbook (from  http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 )

Response:

Here is an update to my post: I went to the court on the day and was really thrilled/ticked to see the cop there. Acc. to the list posted outside, he had about 30-40 "victims" under his name.  Of course he is going to show up to earn his and his buddies pays. The judge called my name, so Mr. .., rolling stop, plead guilty or not guilty.  I said "not guilty" and then uttered a sentence "and my record is clean"… he said $50.00 and court supervision. I wanted to resist this $50 but didn’t want to pick an argument with his highness.  It took about 5-10 sec for the system to get $50 of my hard earned money.  The cop was sitting and smiling on his accomplishments.  He wasted two hours of my time (not counting countless moments thinking about this ordeal) but at least I could say I pleaded "not guilty" and saved about $25-$50 in the fine and four hour of mental torture (aka driving school). While in the line waiting to pay, I started talking to others.  They all were ticketed by the same cop, on the same stop sign around the same time (~9AM) on different days.  What a coincedence or should I call it what a racket! This is easy money for the system. Things like these really make you wonder about the fairness of this system.  I had a high respect for these cops trying to their job but have lost some since this episode. Thanks for reading this… Hopefully nonone comes after me from the system for denigrating the system;-) Bye for now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was failing > to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an interesection > (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the > oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain myself. > I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when they > called out my name). > It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps > unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in court > awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my area) > during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as you show > up. > I never really thought of court quite like this… but it does make sense after > I think about it. You sit around in a room filled to over capacity with people > that haven’t bathed in weeks (or even seen water in weeks), that have shoes with > no soles, that are missing two teeth, have ratted hair…. yep… that’s got to > be it. That’s the idea behind "mail-in" tickets. If you can afford it, you mail > it in. If not, it’s not worth the State’s bother to try to force collection. > What a racket. > — > Michael A. Stone Jr. > The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets > http://home.att.net/~speeding > Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". > – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet > "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in > accidents than relatively high speed drivers." > – Cirillo (1968) > (from  http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) > Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a long-term > positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. > – The Highway Safety Deskbook > (from

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 ) Before you buy.

Response:

 I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was failing to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an interesection (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain myself. I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when they called out my name). It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in court awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my area) during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as you show up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Greetings. > About three weeks ago, I got the ticket (first one in my 12-13 years > driving history) for what the cop claimed "rolling stop" and he put on > the ticket "failed to stop  at the stop sign and yield to pedestrian". > I am very conservative driver and never speed over 5 miles the limit, > picky about the stop sign stoppage.  I told the cop but he said, "don’t > worry it is a minor infraction, you can come to the court and would let > you go under court supervision." > Unfortunately, I don’t even recall what happened at the stop sign as I > was talking to a colleague in the van.  He stopped me about three lights > later. > My destiny with the court is next week… Any pointers what to expect? > What to tell the judge if he asked me what happened? > Pl advise. > AK > Always to go to court for a ticket.  In some states you can get a Prayer > for Judgement, kinda like you plead guilty but it doesnt count on your > record.  Or in other states, you could go to traffic school and get the > charge wiped out after completion.  I got a speeding ticket in Virginia > and took the safety class in my home state and mailed in the paper > work.  Bing bang boom…not on my record. > — > Christine

Response:

One "hope" is to go for a hearing, and hope the State Trooper is too busy to show up.   If that happens, you win by default.  It all depends where on the priority list that day, the Trooper puts a traffic ticket against, hopefully, "bigger fish to fry" (a drug bust, bank robbery, etc). BTW, I would not talk with the Trooper.  If you piss him off, he make sure, he is at the hearing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance.

Response:

If I were you, I would lie like a rug. Make up the best lie you can think of and go with it. If you don’t lie, you will be found guilty – no matter your previous driving record. I had the same experience as you – the officer went to court and lied about the whole incident. If you had a witness who said you stopped completely, that would help your case. Look to see if perhaps trees were covering the stop sign or if it was obstructed by some other obstacle, take photos and say you didn’t see the sign – you just slowed down in order to be safe at the intersection. Either way, it can’t hurt to go to court and try. Good Luck. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Greetings. > About three weeks ago, I got the ticket (first one in my 12-13 years > driving history) for what the cop claimed "rolling stop" and he put on > the ticket "failed to stop  at the stop sign and yield to pedestrian". > I am very conservative driver and never speed over 5 miles the limit, > picky about the stop sign stoppage.  I told the cop but he said, "don’t > worry it is a minor infraction, you can come to the court and would let > you go under court supervision." > Unfortunately, I don’t even recall what happened at the stop sign as I > was talking to a colleague in the van.  He stopped me about three lights > later. > My destiny with the court is next week… Any pointers what to expect? > What to tell the judge if he asked me what happened? > Pl advise. > AK > Before you buy.

Response:

Seems to me that the smartest thing to do on this one would be to talk to your lawyer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]

Response:

Greetings. About three weeks ago, I got the ticket (first one in my 12-13 years driving history) for what the cop claimed "rolling stop" and he put on the ticket "failed to stop  at the stop sign and yield to pedestrian". I am very conservative driver and never speed over 5 miles the limit, picky about the stop sign stoppage.  I told the cop but he said, "don’t worry it is a minor infraction, you can come to the court and would let you go under court supervision." Unfortunately, I don’t even recall what happened at the stop sign as I was talking to a colleague in the van.  He stopped me about three lights later. My destiny with the court is next week… Any pointers what to expect? What to tell the judge if he asked me what happened? Pl advise. AK Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance.

Without knowing where this ticket was issued, its hard to answer your question. Check with your state’s DMV. In some states, running a stop sign might not result in any points being added to your driving record. On the other hand, if you did run the stop sign, you should consider yourself lucky that the worst thing that happened was that ticket. I have seen people run the stop sign at the corner of the street where I used to live who paid for that mistake with a trip by ambulance to the nearest hospital.

Response:

You don’t say where you are but rules vary in different counties in CA.  Some let you go to traffic school if no tickets within the last 3 years (provided you pay fine, court fees and traffic school fees).  Others don’t allow traffic school so you’ll get a point unless you can convince the judge to dismiss or rule "Not Guilty."  Oh yeah, very hard to lose by default here since cops get OT pay for appearing in court with you. Yip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]

Response:

2 years ago I was followed 6 miles to my house on a country road by a state trooper. When I pulled in my driveway, he turned on his lights & siren and told me that I ran a stop sign on my way home. I always stop at that particular sign and I knew he was behind me all the way. I took it to court and the DA would not bargain – the judge did not reduce the ticket at all and thew the book at me – I have never had a ticket for anything in the last 12 years. Needless to say, I wasn’t surprised at the way the system worked – at least I wasted the officers time and the taxpayers money by taking it to court. Now I run that stop sign every day – just to get my monies worth! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]

Response:

[Posting from friends account...do not reply] Greetings, I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for running through a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor infraction (‘failure to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my insurance go up for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I go about handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I say to the judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me running the sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so on...I'm already aware of that]

Response:

That sounds familiar, I got a ticket once for making an illegal U-turn. Well I was turning left in to a parking lot less than 500 feet from an intersection.  Illegal, technically, but everyone does that including cops. Well as I was applying the brakes getting ready to make the left I got rear-ended (in WA state).  Now we all know the person who rear-ends you is at fault in this state.  I hadn’t even crossed the yellow line yet when this happened.  I got ticketed for making an illegal U-turn and causing the accident!!??? I went to court with the RCW’s, a Seattle cop, and a witness to contest the ticket.  All of these people and the law were on my side.  The judge just said "so what" and I was stuck with the ticket, I would have appealed but it would have cost me more to do that then pay the fine.  Business decision on my part.  As a side note the ticket also said I caused the accident by having a little check box filled, I called the WSP to confirm this and they said yes, that means you were the cause of the accident.  When I asked the Judge if the ticket said I caused the accident he said no.  I don’t think he knew how to do his job, he was also, just like most police in Edmonds discriminatory against age.  If you are 25 and under you don’t have any rights in this town.  The guy who rear ended me was married and 35, so the cop already had an attitude against me.  The guy who rear ended me also "set up" a witness, after he rear ended me we both pulled over, he used a pay phone and 10 minutes later a "witness" who saw the accident decided to turn around and come back.  Funny I never remembered, a white hatchback any where near the accident scene.  The guy also claimed an injury to his hand, the impact was only a nudge with minimal damage between us so that was B.S. as well.  I imagine if I had the money I could have investigated it and got him on insurance fraud. Travis (Still frustrated and pissed over that one 7 years later)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2 years ago I was followed 6 miles to my house on a country road by a state > trooper. When I pulled in my driveway, he turned on his lights & siren and told > me that I ran a stop sign on my way home. I always stop at that particular sign > and I knew he was behind me all the way. I took it to court and the DA would not > bargain – the judge did not reduce the ticket at all and thew the book at me – I > have never had a ticket for anything in the last 12 years. Needless to say, I > wasn’t surprised at the way the system worked – at least I wasted the officers > time and the taxpayers money by taking it to court. > Now I run that stop sign every day – just to get my monies worth! > Mike > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign?  [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]

Response:

Question:

We just got word that Dr. Christiane Northrup, one of the most famous women doctors in the US, has been promoting Maharishi’s plan for world peace in her monthly newsletters this fall. As you may know, Dr. Northrup has become very prominent in women’s health in the US over the past ten years. She has published several important best-selling books, Women’s Bodies, Women’s Wisdom, and The Wisdom of Menopause. She is also a regular keynote speaker at health-related conferences throughout the US, and appears regularly on TV and radio. She mentioned the Maharishi Effect research and promoted the making of donations to support Maharishi’s plan for 40,000 "peacemakers" in India in the last two monthly issues of her widely popular newsletter, "Health Wisdom for Women." In her December issue she says, "Last month I told you about the "Maharishi Effect"–the scientifically documented decreased incidence of violent events when 1 percent of the population of a given area is practicing Transcendental Meditation (TM). Shortly after I wrote that, one of my friends who meditates told me about the newly launched Maharishi Global Development Fund. The not-for-profit organization is training and supporting a group of 40,000 peacemakers in India, where it is relatively inexpensive to support them. Maharishi, who introduced TM to the world 40 years ago, notes that the only way to permanently rid the world of terrorism and create lasting peace is from the level of the Unified Field of Pure Consciousness–a single, universal field of intelligence from which emanates all forms and phenomena in the Universe. The principle behind using meditation or any other modality to positively affect the world is that you must change consciousness first (which is part of the Unified Field). From this change in consciousness, the outer, physical world changes. The goal is to have a $1 billion endowment fund to support the group permanently… [She then gives details of how people can make a donation.] ….Let me be clear about one thing: I completely support our country’s current approach to combating terrorism. Terrorism is a hate crime and, like domestic violence and racial crimes, it must not be tolerated. I also know that a little help from our collective inner wisdom and The Unified Field (the level from which reality is created in the first place) can work miracles and assist in ways that are beyond our wildest dreams." Many inquiries and donations were subsequently received for the Maharishi Global Development Fund. We have contacted her about the proposal H.E. Dr. John Hagelin has been presenting in Washington, DC, this past month and directed her to our new Web site  < http://www.permanentpeace.org > .. We suggested that she sign up for the Institute’s new "E-Newsletter" at  < http://www.istpp.org > so that she can stay up to date with the progress being made. It is really wonderful to see more and more leaders like Dr. Northrup beginning to come forward to support Maharishi’s plan for creating permanent world peace. Jai Guru Dev Mario — Ecce enim regnum Dei *intra* vos est. — Evangelium secundum Lucam 17:21

Response:

You’re right.  It is Off Topic.  Shouldn’t that be posted on alt.fan.money.grubbing.cult.leaders? S. suricata

Response:

> You’re right.  It is Off Topic.  Shouldn’t that be posted on > alt.fan.money.grubbing.cult.leaders? > S. suricata

You’re a mean one Ms Suricata – live and let live! or should I say, genuflect and let genuflect. Squiggles

Response:

Question:

Just got back froma 4-day camping trip and  I’m very glad  to be able to add my 8 pm prayers tonight and every night this week for Pestiferous and Ollie — Christine (cat mom to Omar, Midnight, Shetra, & Oreo)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Posted by request: > Pestiferous lives in New England USA.  Ollie lives in New > Zealand.  Other than being cats, what do these two have in > common?  They’re missing, their owners are frequent contributors > on USENET, and we all want them to come home.  Not only that, but > there are many other cats, d*gs, and even people who are gone > from their loved ones right now. > At eight PM, in whatever time zone you are in, every night for > the next week, please say a prayer, purr, meatloaf meditate, > headbutt, light a candle or think kind thoughts for those who are > missing from those they love.  Maybe the power of a prayers going > out for that long will bring at least one or two of our missing > ones back to us. > I only belong to RPCA, so those of you who belong to other > newsgroups can spread the idea if you wish to those groups, but > lets get those purrs and prayers going 24 hours a day.  I figure > we can just about cover it as we have members all over the > world.  SO, remember, 8pm local time, pray, think kind thoughts, > light candles, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, and purr for our > friends to find their way home. > Thanks, > Pam, Berfert, Tanada, QC, Merlin, and PC S.

Response:

Posted by request: Pestiferous lives in New England USA.  Ollie lives in New Zealand.  Other than being cats, what do these two have in common?  They’re missing, their owners are frequent contributors on USENET, and we all want them to come home.  Not only that, but there are many other cats, d*gs, and even people who are gone from their loved ones right now. At eight PM, in whatever time zone you are in, every night for the next week, please say a prayer, purr, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, light a candle or think kind thoughts for those who are missing from those they love.  Maybe the power of a prayers going out for that long will bring at least one or two of our missing ones back to us.   I only belong to RPCA, so those of you who belong to other newsgroups can spread the idea if you wish to those groups, but lets get those purrs and prayers going 24 hours a day.  I figure we can just about cover it as we have members all over the world.  SO, remember, 8pm local time, pray, think kind thoughts, light candles, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, and purr for our friends to find their way home. Thanks, Pam, Berfert, Tanada, QC, Merlin, and PC S.

Response:

Just got back froma 4-day camping trip and  I’m very glad  to be able to add my 8 pm prayers tonight and every night this week for Pestiferous and Ollie — Christine (cat mom to Omar, Midnight, Shetra, & Oreo)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Posted by request: > Pestiferous lives in New England USA.  Ollie lives in New > Zealand.  Other than being cats, what do these two have in > common?  They’re missing, their owners are frequent contributors > on USENET, and we all want them to come home.  Not only that, but > there are many other cats, d*gs, and even people who are gone > from their loved ones right now. > At eight PM, in whatever time zone you are in, every night for > the next week, please say a prayer, purr, meatloaf meditate, > headbutt, light a candle or think kind thoughts for those who are > missing from those they love.  Maybe the power of a prayers going > out for that long will bring at least one or two of our missing > ones back to us. > I only belong to RPCA, so those of you who belong to other > newsgroups can spread the idea if you wish to those groups, but > lets get those purrs and prayers going 24 hours a day.  I figure > we can just about cover it as we have members all over the > world.  SO, remember, 8pm local time, pray, think kind thoughts, > light candles, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, and purr for our > friends to find their way home. > Thanks, > Pam, Berfert, Tanada, QC, Merlin, and PC S.

Response:

Posted by request: Pestiferous lives in New England USA.  Ollie lives in New Zealand.  Other than being cats, what do these two have in common?  They’re missing, their owners are frequent contributors on USENET, and we all want them to come home.  Not only that, but there are many other cats, d*gs, and even people who are gone from their loved ones right now. At eight PM, in whatever time zone you are in, every night for the next week, please say a prayer, purr, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, light a candle or think kind thoughts for those who are missing from those they love.  Maybe the power of a prayers going out for that long will bring at least one or two of our missing ones back to us.   I only belong to RPCA, so those of you who belong to other newsgroups can spread the idea if you wish to those groups, but lets get those purrs and prayers going 24 hours a day.  I figure we can just about cover it as we have members all over the world.  SO, remember, 8pm local time, pray, think kind thoughts, light candles, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, and purr for our friends to find their way home. Thanks, Pam, Berfert, Tanada, QC, Merlin, and PC S.

Response:

Just got back froma 4-day camping trip and  I’m very glad  to be able to add my 8 pm prayers tonight and every night this week for Pestiferous and Ollie — Christine (cat mom to Omar, Midnight, Shetra, & Oreo)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Posted by request: > Pestiferous lives in New England USA.  Ollie lives in New > Zealand.  Other than being cats, what do these two have in > common?  They’re missing, their owners are frequent contributors > on USENET, and we all want them to come home.  Not only that, but > there are many other cats, d*gs, and even people who are gone > from their loved ones right now. > At eight PM, in whatever time zone you are in, every night for > the next week, please say a prayer, purr, meatloaf meditate, > headbutt, light a candle or think kind thoughts for those who are > missing from those they love.  Maybe the power of a prayers going > out for that long will bring at least one or two of our missing > ones back to us. > I only belong to RPCA, so those of you who belong to other > newsgroups can spread the idea if you wish to those groups, but > lets get those purrs and prayers going 24 hours a day.  I figure > we can just about cover it as we have members all over the > world.  SO, remember, 8pm local time, pray, think kind thoughts, > light candles, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, and purr for our > friends to find their way home. > Thanks, > Pam, Berfert, Tanada, QC, Merlin, and PC S.

Response:

Posted by request: Pestiferous lives in New England USA.  Ollie lives in New Zealand.  Other than being cats, what do these two have in common?  They’re missing, their owners are frequent contributors on USENET, and we all want them to come home.  Not only that, but there are many other cats, d*gs, and even people who are gone from their loved ones right now. At eight PM, in whatever time zone you are in, every night for the next week, please say a prayer, purr, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, light a candle or think kind thoughts for those who are missing from those they love.  Maybe the power of a prayers going out for that long will bring at least one or two of our missing ones back to us.   I only belong to RPCA, so those of you who belong to other newsgroups can spread the idea if you wish to those groups, but lets get those purrs and prayers going 24 hours a day.  I figure we can just about cover it as we have members all over the world.  SO, remember, 8pm local time, pray, think kind thoughts, light candles, meatloaf meditate, headbutt, and purr for our friends to find their way home. Thanks, Pam, Berfert, Tanada, QC, Merlin, and PC S.

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Question:

Greetings, all – and Happy New Year. As the subject header says, I am having Big Trouble with a keloid on the exit side of my relatively new ear cartilage pierce. Here’s the story .. Was pierced about 10 weeks ago at by a professional piercer in Toronto (Ontario, Canada).  The hole is on the rim of the ear, about half way up. I have been very good with cleaning, according to piercer’s instructions: warm water & epsom salt soaks 2-3 times/day, hands etc. off, and so on.   Despite my best efforts, the pierce became infected.  My doctor was very supportive (unlike the fellow at the walk-in clinic who took one look and wanted to pull the ring!).  I was on oral antibiotics for almost 3 wks.  The infection seems to have passed, but the pierce is not healing.   There is a largish, active lump on the exit side (back) of the ear … it was relatively inert for a while, giving me hope that when the infection healed, the lump would gradually resorb. In the past week however, it has become painful, and continues to ooze, sometimes bloody fluid. I am *very* discouraged.  I have tried incresind the soaks, icing the lump, aspirin paste and aspririn creme (Aspercreme) at my doctors’s suggestion.  She also gave me an antibiotic creme which has no effect on the lump itself.  At my initial visit, she said we should give it at least 6 months to settle before woryying too much about the keloid (if it was one – it was only just forming then).  I plan to see her again this week, and am feeling like pulling the ring may be the only way to go … sigh. If anyone has any suggestions for tactics I have not yet tried, I’d appreciate hearing them.  Also, in your vast collective experience, if I pull this ring, should I worry about this happening again? Was it a product of the infection? of my cleaning regimen?  I like this pierce (my first non-lobe), and had been planning others – but all is now on hold until I achieve some resolution with this one. Frustrated, Allison

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Well Allison, I don’t mean to put a downer on things but I had a similar thing going on round the back of my ear ( up top thro’ the cart.) It had healed fine so as with my other pierces I gave up on the cleaning and got on with my life. 3 weeks later I noticed that my ear was a little sore ! There was this huge lupm growing out along the ring. Not your usual big pusy spot but more of a hard lump. So back to the cleaning I went. Two years, 3 re-pierces, alot of sadness and various jewellery later, the best I can manage is a small lump within my ear. To cheer myself up I’m trying to decide on a nice ‘below the neck’ pierce to do. I’d like a frenum but the thought of a bad infection down there is a bit worrying!!! The only thing I could suggest is to put in jewellery that is smaller than the original pierce guage, but once the lump is there I think the best thing to do is to take the ring out and put it in somewhere else… Let your imagination run riot, Happy New Year, Paul

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snip > Was pierced about 10 weeks ago at by a professional piercer in Toronto > (Ontario, Canada).  The hole is on the rim of the ear, about half way up. snip > I am *very* discouraged.  I have tried incresind the soaks, icing the > lump, aspirin paste and aspririn creme (Aspercreme) at my doctors’s > suggestion.  She also gave me an antibiotic creme which has no effect on > the lump itself.  At my initial visit, she said we should give it at > least 6 months to settle before woryying too much about the keloid (if it > was one – it was only just forming then).  I plan to see her again this > week, and am feeling like pulling the ring may be the only way to go …

snippety snip You don’t mention what sort of stud/ring you have. After I had my nose pierced a small keloid developed on the inside. I tried heaps of things to get rid of it, but in the end decided that I could live with it (Which I did for two years.) Three weeks ago I changed the ring (silver) for a SSS ring [do so like those bright and shiny things ] and the keloid has now disappeared *completely*. I have lots of silver earrings and have never had any problems with them, but it seems that cart. pierces can be more sensitive to the type of metal. [Anyone else found this?] hang in there dude. Xian

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>Allison A Taylor lamented about a keloid-type lump on her cartilage

 pierce. >You don’t mention what sort of stud/ring you have… >…Three weeks ago I changed the ring (silver) for a SSS ring [do so >like those bright and shiny things ] and the keloid has now disappeared >*completely*.

People react differently to different metals. As we have discussed here before, sterling silver is not the optimal metal to wear on pierces, especially if they are not healed. For myself, I had my tragus pierced with an SSS bead ring, and while it never got "infected," it kept crusting for a year! I finally changed to a niobium (which is more inert, apparently), and the crusties and flakies seem to have disappeared! — UH School of Library & Info Studies. "Whatever the cost of our   o|<0_0>——* libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant      =^-| |_| | nation." -Walter Cronkite [R.a.b.bit--FAQ Maintainer: "Think Ink!"]    _B}_B}

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