Question:
Hey, I’m new here, and this is prolly a *very* old question for youse guys. But I’d like to ask it anyways. Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser removal of a former lover’s tattoo? It was an elaborate design indicating my ownership of her, body and soul. Except the ownership now turns out to have been a lot more temporary than we thought, partially because she started toying with new religious/philosophical stances (long story, and you don’t want to hear it), but mostly because she couldn’t deal with jealousy issues involving my new slave. Anyways, she now wants out. Simply reconfiguring the tattoo doesn’t appeal to her. (The cheap solution to ANY problem never appealed to her, which is one reason I’m glad to have a sub who is a little more compliant.) Basically, she wants retroactive virginity, sorta like Britain’s Liz I. Lasers would seem the way to go, from a quality standpoint. But money is a problem. She ain’t got none, and demands that I pay for the job. Personally, I would prefer a removal method that is cheaper, and would leave a nice scar, preferably something painful. Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost hire a hit man for that kinda $$$. (Just kidding. Hey, should that be "hit person" in the modern era? Just because I’m a Sadist doesn’t mean I don’t mind my feminism…) Villon
Response:
>Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m >looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost >hire >a hit man for that kinda $$$. >(Just kidding. Hey, should that be "hit person" in the modern era? Just >because I’m a Sadist doesn’t mean I don’t mind my feminism…) >Villon
Honestly, aside from finding your whole post very disturbing I think you should help with the removal, leaving a permenant mark on anyones body is wrong when it is not initiated by the recipient, and coercing them into it is equal to rape. Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean that you own the individual in question. As for her feelings changing with the introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may have been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages the feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" the underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and as such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be lucky to get even that. Chumley The Happy Clown Master Piercee BMSGU Chicago Charter I am from Chicago, but I am not a contingent. To reply via E-Mail remove the <tumor>
Response:
"Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser removal of a former lover’s tattoo?" <snip> "ownership of her" <snip> "Am I under any obligation, here?" <snip> Not being into bdsm but having respect for other human beings and their choices , I’ll try to remain objective… However you don’t deserve any respect and certainly don’t know how to earn it , A loving , caring top would know the meaning of RESPONSABILITY. i bet this word doesn’t belong to your vocabulary????? CONSCIENCE doesn’t either???? You fit the kind of people I’d reffer to a psychiatrist….as abusive AND delusional… Try to be decent at least once and pay to help remove trace of your stupidity… good luck to your ex… corine
Response:
After reading the responses here, i’d suggest you cross-post to ssbb if you want a more bdsm-friendly response (although you might get flamed there too, depending on people’s moods … but who knows?). Assuming you were both consenting adults, clear in your communication and expectations of each other and things still didn’t work out (for whatever reason), i don’t believe You have a responsibility to pay for the removal of the tattoo. And now that i seem to have stepped into it with both feet (omg, is this my official "delurk"? oh sh*t! *chuckle*) … yes, i am a slave and yes, i do consider myself owned by my Master (better still, He considers that he owns me
). Do i bear His permanent mark yet? No. Have we talked about it? Yes. Will i, when the time comes, accept His mark, be it a tattoo and/or special piercing? Absolutely. But with both eyes open and knowing that there are few certainties in the world, particularly with relationships. And one last word concerning polyamory, since that seems to have set some people off (as if the whole SM and potential for abuse didn’t) … it’s not for everyone. But i do know people for whom it works very well. Again, it’s a communication thing. It’s also a maturity thing (for all involved parties). Don’t be so quick to judge just because it’s not for you. — shining-one{WH} property of her beloved Master Whiphand (that’s her … the "mouthy" one trying to look "innocent")
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m >looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost >hire >a hit man for that kinda $$$. >(Just kidding. Hey, should that be "hit person" in the modern era? Just >because I’m a Sadist doesn’t mean I don’t mind my feminism…) >Honestly, aside from finding your whole post very disturbing I think you should >help with the removal, leaving a permenant mark on anyones body is wrong when >it is not initiated by the recipient, and coercing them into it is equal to >rape. Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean >that you own the individual in question. As for her feelings changing with the >introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may have >been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages the >feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" the >underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and as >such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be >lucky to get even that.
*** We are responsible for our own bodies. If I allow my Mistress to brand her initial on my ass, that is MY problem, not hers. The shifting of responsibility is pathetic. "my command"? She coulda told him to fuck off. Let’s see…. "command", make the appointment, drive to the artist… Ample opportunity to say "No". I am assuming the bottom was over 21. k e i t h a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a p p n y c – e n d o f t r a n s m i s s i o n –
Response:
> >Am I under any obligation, here? She *did* get the thing at my command. I’m >looking at maybe a two grand removal job…sheez louise, you could almost >hire >a hit man for that kinda $$$. > Honestly, aside from finding your whole post very disturbing I think you should > help with the removal, leaving a permenant mark on anyones body is wrong when > it is not initiated by the recipient, and coercing them into it is equal to > rape.
Now hold on thar, pardner. I didn’t coerce the damn thing. No-one held a pistol to her head. We had discussed previously whether she would wear my mark; we collaborated on the design. I can assure you that jenny (that’s what I’ll call she-who-demands-removal) was a willing participant. Yeah, it was "at my command" because this was the sort of S/m thang where it was *all* at my command. But if she didn’t explicitly wannit, I wouldn’t have commanded it, ya dig? Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean > that you own the individual in question.
Actually, we did use the words "own, body and soul." But I viddy your point. Believe me, the idea of (fr’instance) drugging her and forcing her to wear my tat is as disgusting to me as it would be to you. Truth is, *she* was the one who was all like, "Let’s go! Let’s go!" She was "commanded" in the same sense you might ask a starving person at the dinner table to dig in. That clear things up for you, Chumley? As for her feelings changing with the > introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may have > been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages the > feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" the > underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and as > such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be > lucky to get even that.
Hmmm. Gotta admit, you open up a very interesting can-o-worms here. I mean, she was the one who started backsliding into the Jesusmania of her kinfolk, but to this day I can’t tell if this pseudo-conversion was cause or effect. Point is, I had always talked about my need for additional slaves, and I thought she accepted this potential. But maybe she didn’t foreseee the level of commitment between ms. newgirl and myself. At any rate, *she* broke off her contract with me. So there’s still a heavy resentment factor on my part, ’cause for all our probs, I didn’t want to see her go. And now I’m to be saddled with the bill. So you really think I changed the equation, even though I tried to be upfront with jenny? I’d like other opinions on that, though perhaps this is not the best forum for it. And just in case the group mind judges that responsibility does indeed belong with yers truly, can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive place for tat removal in the San Diego/Inland Empire area? Or maybe Arizona, since ms. j now spends much time there. Villon
Response:
writes: >*** We are responsible for our own bodies. If I allow my Mistress to >brand her initial on my ass, that is MY problem, not hers. >The shifting of responsibility is pathetic. >"my command"? She coulda told him to fuck off. >Let’s see…. "command", make the appointment, drive to >the artist… Ample opportunity to say "No". >I am assuming the bottom was over 21.
Allright, in consideration of the original post is it not apparent that the bottom in question is not real sure of herself, and therefore is not truly into the scene. When the individuals in question are truly aware and certain of themselves then yes accountability is on the recipient. However can you deny that many bottoms (notice I do not say all or even most) are very unsure of themselves and will find their identity through someone else at least for short periods of time. In the more mainstream culture this is why so many women and even some men end up in abusive relationships repeatedly making the same mistake. Back to BDSM this scene caters to the abuse seeker fortunately it is often in a controlled situation and little real harm will result. Due to the tone of the post I am making a guess that the poster seeks out these abuse seekers and thrives off taking advantage of the individuals in question. This too is not uncommon in the scene. This is not a blanket statement but merely a truth. It is the responsibilty of the top to assure that the bottom is in fact certain, especially when a permanent labeling is in question. In this case it would appear as though the top simply used his position as the dominant personality to "persuade" the bottom into something that should not have even been considered in a newer relationship. Had he at any time mentioned that she had brought up the idea then I would agree with you that it is her problem. Under the circumstances and with the information given I really do not think she was truly an advocate of BDSM. BDSM can be a wonderfull thing for those that belong in the scene but the practitioners should also be very aware of the underlying emotional traumas that may lead an individual to experiment and while being supportive or helpfull, they should not make assumptions that another is as into it as they are. Think of it this way, a young lad gets his first GF’s name tattoo’ed on his arm not as a show of love but because he is told by her that if he doesn’t he will never get any. To an 18 year old, unsure of himself, this seems like a simple and easy means of assuring a lasting relationship. he gets it and the relationship falls apart soon after because she knows she owns him, now he has to explain jennifer in big bold letters for the rest of his life. He fucked up. But she is still to blame at least in part because she put the ultimatum on the table. No one should be taken advantage of. Not everyone has the strength to say "No fuck off" it doesn’t make them less human. I’ll stop now before I start repeating myself Chumley The Happy Clown Master Piercee BMSGU Chicago Charter I am from Chicago, but I am not a contingent. To reply via E-Mail remove the <tumor>
Response:
I think we should all just be thankful that these two half-wits are no longer together, and hence, not in danger of breeding. |+/-1 — We have to spread this around! Great! Let’s put it on the InterNet! No. We have to reach people who’s opinions actually matter. -the Simpsons
Response:
>Think of it this way, a young lad gets his first GF’s name tattoo’ed on his arm >not as a show of love but because he is told by her that if he doesn’t he will >never get any.
*** Good analogy, but then the person is deprived of the valuable lesson of Thinking For One’s Self. I understand all your points. I still feel you are responsable for yer own damn ass. Now if this Top was Unsafe, Unsane and Unconsensual, of course I’d be singing a different tune. But he sounded reasonable. I’d _really_ like to see her post. k e i t h a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a p p n y c – e n d o f t r a n s m i s s i o n –
Response:
>After reading the responses here, i’d suggest you cross-post to ssbb if you >want a more bdsm-friendly response
actually, quite alot of people here are into bdsm, including several of those who replied to the thread… >And now that i seem to have stepped into it with both feet (omg, is this my >official "delurk"? oh sh*t! *chuckle*)
Well, in any case, Welcome! If you haven’t stumbled across the FAQs yet, do check out the links in my .sig, particularly the Welcome FAQ which will give you a good intro to the group. happy delurking! heidi — http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~heidi RAB FAQS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart RAB Welcome FAQ: http://members.aol.com/ta2intl/welcome.html
Response:
<Snip> >Now hold on thar, pardner. I didn’t coerce the damn thing. No-one held a >pistol to her head. We had discussed previously whether she would wear my >mark; we collaborated on the design. I can assure you that jenny (that’s what >I’ll call she-who-demands-removal) was a willing participant. >Yeah, it was "at my command" because this was the sort of S/m thang where it >was *all* at my command. But if she didn’t explicitly wannit, I wouldn’t have >commanded it, ya dig?
Now, ya gotta tell us these things, when asking a ethical question the details are important. >Simply because you have or had a master/slave relationship does not mean > that you own the individual in question. >Actually, we did use the words "own, body and soul." But I viddy your point. >Believe me, the idea of (fr’instance) drugging her and forcing her to wear my >tat is as disgusting to me as it would be to you. Truth is, *she* was the one >who was all like, "Let’s go! Let’s go!" She was "commanded" in the same sense >you might ask a starving person at the dinner table to dig in. >That clear things up for you, Chumley?
I use the phrase "Mind, Body and Soul myself" Your original post’s tone left me thinking she was literally a cast off possion cause it didn’t work as well anymore, This post is considerably less disturbing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->As for her feelings changing with the > introduction of a new slave, don’t you think some of her commitment may >have > been because she was the the one getting the attention, when that chages >the > feelings of committment change as well. Even if the relationship is "open" >the > underlying issue is still between two people you changed that equation, and >as > such you owe her more then just the cost of removal but I am sure she’ll be > lucky to get even that. >Hmmm. Gotta admit, you open up a very interesting can-o-worms here. I mean, >she was the one who started backsliding into the Jesusmania of her kinfolk, >but to this day I can’t tell if this pseudo-conversion was cause or effect. >Point is, I had always talked about my need for additional slaves, and I >thought she accepted this potential. But maybe she didn’t foreseee the level >of commitment between ms. newgirl and myself.
Often sliding into a Religion is again a matter of gaining identity, she didn’t find it in the scene, so she looked in a different location. The newgirl very likely was more a catalyst then a cause. >At any rate, *she* broke off her contract with me. So there’s still a heavy >resentment factor on my part, ’cause for all our probs, I didn’t want to see >her go. And now I’m to be saddled with the bill.
I understand the resentment factor all too well. In light of the slightly more in depth view of the situation, I would be a bit more hesitant to saddle you with the bill. A slave leaving because the situation changed is not the same thing as say a normal or abnormal breakup. This is beginning to sound more like the latter of the two. I can say you’re probably lucky to have her leave. Things could have gotten much uglier if she stayed, especially if she turned vindictive. >So you really think I changed the equation, even though I tried to be upfront >with jenny? I’d like other opinions on that, though perhaps this is not the >best forum for it.
I know a whole lot of people that supposedly have open relationships, so far about half have ended in divorce, a several most likely will, and two couples for all intents seem to be suceeding at it. I realize there may be a lot more couples out there then two that can suceed in an open situation, but that couple has to be very strong and both have to be certain of the situation. It is much easier to agree to something if you don’t think it will actually happen. Perhaps it’s only denial on the part of the reluctant partner. In either case my experience points to open relationships being somewhat toxic to any but the most well suited of couples. The truly difficult catch here is that judging a relationship that you are a part of is very hard to do, we all tend to put our own beliefs on our partner at least in our heads. >And just in case the group mind judges that responsibility does indeed belong >with yers truly, can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive place for tat >removal in the San Diego/Inland Empire area? Or maybe Arizona, since ms. j >now spends much time there. >Villon
As for letting the NG decide, we are merely a bunch of enthusiasts from various walks of life, we are not a consortium of rule makers. Do what you feel is right, remember none of us were there, nor have we seen the tattoo in question. Ultimately in my mind it comes down to did you in anyway coerce the tat into existence, if so you share some responsibility, if not you are blameless. If all things are knowingly consensual then any responsibility by the top ends when the bottom is no longer in a postition to be controlled. Marking or branding may be a cloudy issue at bes,. the only thing I can say is that as a top be carefull don’t allow marking on a sub that is not 100% into it. I really think there should be a battery of psychological testing before any relationship should be allowed to exist. As always the above is nothing but the ramblings of a clown, Chumley The Happy Clown Master Piercee BMSGU Chicago Charter I am from Chicago, but I am not a contingent. To reply via E-Mail remove the <tumor>
Response:
"Truth is, *she* was the one who was all like, "Let’s go! Let’s go!" She was "commanded" in the same sense you might ask a starving person at the dinner table to dig in." As the Clown said , i also, wished I had more pieces of the puzzle before responding to your posting, the tone of it was so cynical and disrespectful… it didn’t seem she had much choice. If it was an agreed thing and now, it looks just that (and i feel bad about flaming someone who don’t deserve it), the paying thing about removal of mark is up to you, The fact that you posted about it suggest you do feel some responsability? so, helping pay could get you freedom again, (she goes on/ you go on) Again, I resent hurting people feelings, especially about lifestyles and acceptance of differences: it’s just that i professionally see a lot of abused people….and you didn’t gave us all clues… Corine
Response:
>Quick recap, in the interest of bandwidth. >Villon’s sub got his mark, per his command. >Said sub no longer wants said permanent mark, and per Villon’s version* wants >Villon to pay for removal. >Lots of feathers ruffled over this one! regarding ethics, legality, etc.
My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s over. — Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Response:
Rodger wrote >My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over.
I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle. ==== FAQs: http://www.achilles.net/~dextra/spako http://www.eskimo.com/~rab/faqpage.html – list of all RAB FAQs" "Oh, he knew what he was doing, even IF he was being led by Mr. Helmet Head"
Response:
"Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser removal of a former lover’s tattoo?" Boy! this posting did made some emotions loose… Now that quite a few people ventilated their opinions on that matter, one thing remain in my (humble?) opinion: A miscalculation on your part. I understand there is a great responsability for a top that goes with a lot of psychological insight .Seems to me you misjudged eargerness for readyness..(..in your partner) That would make you partly responsible? Corine.
Response:
>My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over.
*** That is far from a "fact". It is no more theatre to some people than "vanilla" is to others. Safe, Sane and Consensual. If the bottom was uncoerced, all’s fair. The bottom hopefully learned a lesson. Or two. That’s life. She found the Lord, she’ll be fine. Right? k e i t h a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a p p n y c – e n d o f t r a n s m i s s i o n –
Response:
>Rodger wrote >My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over. >I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle.
All good things come to an end. — Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Response:
>>My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over. >*** That is far from a "fact". It is no more theatre to some people >than "vanilla" is to others.
More people who seem to be forgetting to use removeable grease paint. Don’t forget that in every bdsm scene the bottom has some word or gesture to use that says "I’ve had enough, stop -right- -now-." At least, in every bdsm scene enacted by people who know what they are doing. Can we say "theatre"? There, I knew you could do it. I’m proud of you, chief! > Safe, Sane and Consensual. >If the bottom was uncoerced, all’s fair. The bottom >hopefully learned a lesson. Or two.
Somehow, one suspects she didn’t. >That’s life. She found the Lord, she’ll be fine. Right?
If you say so, Keith. I would -never- dispute what you say. — Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Response:
> Am I ethically bound to help fork over the dough for the very expensive laser > removal of a former lover’s tattoo? > It was an elaborate design indicating my ownership of her, body and soul. > Except the ownership now turns out to have been a lot more temporary than we > thought, partially because she started toying with new religious/philosophical > stances (long story, and you don’t want to hear it), but mostly because she > couldn’t deal with jealousy issues involving my new slave.
Hmmm…sounds like, The Slave Girl of Gor, anyone read THAT book long ago? Not only was she branded, and learned to love it, but eventually subjected to rape and being sold off, being one of just many girls for a male’s use.. And in this book the female, once proud and proper, learned to LOVE the depth of the feelings of helplessness and powerlessness. But, the book is a male fantasy. Maybe it is even a female FANTASY. The ability to adapt to the most horrifying situations which life can throw at you and still to bounce upright and even to enjoy what happens next. This post really drives home the importance of choosing extrememly intelligient and CARING partners in life. Talking out what is aceptable and what hurts, emotionally, safe words and then the respecting of safe words. Creating a scene which a person can abort and quickly obtain cuddles and safety. In my opinion, your ex girlfriend would be better off to cut bait and bail on you. Completely. She can count this as a lesson learned, pay for the removal of the tat herself and consider herself damn lucky to be out of a life scene which has you in it. Next time I hope that she chooses a more quality person with which to explore and master such primal emotions. Laura — Laura Gitchel http://pobox.com/~gitchel/laura/
Response:
> Now hold on thar, pardner. I didn’t coerce the damn thing. No-one held a > pistol to her head. We had discussed previously whether she would wear my > mark; we collaborated on the design. I can assure you that jenny (that’s what > I’ll call she-who-demands-removal) was a willing participant.
Mice will walk over an electrified grid to get cocaine, and they will kill themselves this way. People who are recovoering from both sexual and cocaine addictions will tell you that sexual addiction is far harder to kick. The hormones which the brain releases during sexual arousal are profoundly powerful. You didn’t hold a gun to her head. You and she set loose a cascade of chemicals far more powerful than gun powder. > Yeah, it was "at my command" because this was the sort of S/m thang where it > was *all* at my command. But if she didn’t explicitly wannit, I wouldn’t have > commanded it, ya dig?
Your cavalier attitude suggests that you’re a moron. Have a nice day. Laura — Laura Gitchel http://pobox.com/~gitchel/laura/
Response:
To Chumley and the others, Thanks for the info, the opinions, and even the flames. The flames, I guess, resulted from a lack of detail in my original post, and from an undertone of resentment which I didn’t see at the time of writing. I’m still peeved at jenny: Losing a lady to another guy is one thing, but losing her to a 2000-year- old con game REALLY sux. And yet I miss her still, no matter how I try to affect a veneer of Toppish disdain. Hey, I’m only praeter-human, right? > I understand the resentment factor all too well. In light of the slightly more > in depth view of the situation, I would be a bit more hesitant to saddle you > with the bill. A slave leaving because the situation changed is not the same > thing as say a normal or abnormal breakup. This is beginning to sound more like > the latter of the two. I can say you’re probably lucky to have her leave. > Things could have gotten much uglier if she stayed, especially if she turned > vindictive.
Ah, they always tell ya: "You’re better off without her." And they are always right when they say this. And they are always impossible to listen to when they say this. At any rate, I’m leaning toward paying the tat removal bill, as funds permit — out of generosity, not obligation. The gesture might facilitate healing. Again, folks, thanks much for the advice, which helped me make this decision. > I really think there should be a battery of psychological testing before any > relationship should be allowed to exist.
And many relationships are themselves a form of battery. Would that it were otherwise.
Response:
>>*** That is far from a "fact". It is no more theatre to some people >than "vanilla" is to others. >More people who seem to be forgetting to use removeable grease paint. >Don’t forget that in every bdsm scene the bottom has some word or >gesture to use that says "I’ve had enough, stop -right- -now-."
*** I don’t know Rodger, here in NYC I know a dozen couples, hetero and homo, who don’t use safe words. Who have been together many years and where the bottom wears a mark. >At least, in every bdsm scene enacted by people who know what they are >doing. Can we say "theatre"? There, I knew you could do it. I’m proud >of you, chief!
*** So, yer saying that the tattoo, brand or cut worn by every bottom was put there against their will? LIFE is theatre, All the worlds a STAGE. Can we say "patronizing"? There I knew you could do it. I’m proud of you, pal! > Safe, Sane and Consensual. >If the bottom was uncoerced, all’s fair. The bottom >hopefully learned a lesson. Or two. >Somehow, one suspects she didn’t.
*** Somehow, one hopes she did. If not, must we feel bad? >That’s life. She found the Lord, she’ll be fine. Right? >If you say so, Keith. I would -never- dispute what you say.
*** Sure you -would- and I’d have it no other way. k e i t h a l e x a n d er www.modernamerican.com a p p n y c @ D V 8 – e n d o f t r a n s m i s s i o n –
Response:
> To Chumley and the others, > Thanks for the info, the opinions, and even the flames. The flames, I guess, > resulted from a lack of detail in my original post, and from an undertone of > resentment which I didn’t see at the time of writing. I’m still peeved at > jenny: Losing a lady to another guy is one thing, but losing her to a > 2000-year- old con game REALLY sux. And yet I miss her still, no matter how I > try to affect a veneer of Toppish disdain. Hey, I’m only praeter-human, > right?
Weird. Yer the one who brought in a new lady and thus destabilized the relationship, no? And yer mad Jenny, right? Fusing with a power larger than ones self is part of the way a person heals when she has been displaced and become nonspecial to a lover. And why in the world would you disdain religion (2,000 year old con game) when it is one of those factors which creates conflict and longing and meaning and depth in a person to such a degree as to make lovemaking downright delicious? Oh well, to each his own. Good luck. Laura — Laura Gitchel http://pobox.com/~gitchel/laura/
Response:
>Rodger wrote >My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >over. >I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle.
Not necessarily. There appear to be two camps, each claiming it’s superiourity, and validity- thee lifestylers, and thee players. Players enjoy their games when it suits them, lifestylers live it 24/7. Please note that I am desperately trying to stay objective, having been embroiled in furious argumentts as to thee relative merits or flaws ov both. As for thee whole ethicality ov thee situation in discusison, I think it incredibly pretentious and presumptious ov any ov us to judge, not knowing thee entire history ov both parties and thee relationship. For someone to say that women in submissive relationships are really submitting to abuse, and that tops in such situations are like some kindov predator feeding off such victims is truly close-minded and prejudiced. Certainly there exist such people, but who are we to know that thee poster is one ov such people? It’s too easy to maintain a moral high-ground when looking in from thee outside. Let’s save thee indignation for Todd Bertrang <g>. "Let us dream of evanescence, and linger in the beautiful foolishness of things" —Kakuzo Okakura, _The Book of Tea_ Denise Robinson, CEO Ambient Inc. www.ambient.on.ca
Response:
It appears to me as if your lady friend has forgotten or over looked numbers 1,5,7,8 in the submissive’s creed. I believe the removal of the tattoo is on her. Submissive’s creed: 1. I will communicate with complete honesty my needs, desires, limits, and experience. I realize that failing to do so will not only prevent my Top and I from from having the best experience possible, but can also lead to physical and emotional harm. 2. I will not try to manipulate my Top. I will not push to make a scene go the way I feel it should. In other words, I will not top from the bottom. 3. I will keep an open mind about trying things that I am not comfortable with and expanding my limits. I will continue to grow as a submissive and as a human being. 4. I will accept the responsibility of discovering what pleases my Top, and will do my best to fulfil his wishes and desires. 5. I will not allow myself to be harmed or abused. I know that submissive does not equal doormat. 6. I will be courteous and helpful to my fellow submissives. I will share my knowledge and experience with others in the hope that they will learn and benefit from where I have been. I will take the time to help those new to the scene start out on the correct path. 7. I will be responsive to my Top. I will not try to hide what my mind and body are feeling so that I may assist him in his responsibilities as my authority. I know that Dominants are not telepaths, and will not expect my Top to know thoughts or feelings which I do not share. 8. I will accept in the responsibility of a scene or relationship gone bad. I will not place total blame on my Top when it is not warranted simply because he is the Dominant. I realize that things may not work out as they should at times, and will do my best to put it behind me and move on. 9. I will give my gift of submission only to those that can responsibly accept and desire to receive. I will not place anyone in the position of Topping me non-consensually, nor will I give my respect to someone that has not earned it. 10. I know that D/s is not a contest, and will never think myself a "better" submissive because I choose to submit on a different level than another. I will not be boastful of the experiences I have had as a bottom. 11. I will be obedient to my Top even if I disagree with what he is requesting. I realize he has my best interests at heart and often knows better than I what I need in a particular situation. 12. I know that my actions reflect upon my Top, and will do my best to help others see him in a positive way. I will not intentionally embarrass or displease my Dominant. 13. Above all, I will wear my title of submissive with honor. I will never cause others to think that being submissive means to be weak or sub-human. I will take pride in who and what I am and will never show myself in a negative way.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Rodger wrote >>My readout on this mess: both parties forgot an essential fact about >>BDSM: it’s a form of theatre. I notice that the actors in the theatres >>I go to put on grease paint that they can wipe off when the play’s >>over. >I thought it was a full time 24/7 lifestyle. >Not necessarily. There appear to be two camps, each claiming it’s >superiourity, and validity- thee lifestylers, and thee players. >Players enjoy their games when it suits them, lifestylers live it >24/7. Please note that I am desperately trying to stay objective, >having been embroiled in furious argumentts as to thee relative merits >or flaws ov both. >As for thee whole ethicality ov thee situation in discusison, I think >it incredibly pretentious and presumptious ov any ov us to judge, not >knowing thee entire history ov both parties and thee relationship. >For someone to say that women in submissive relationships are really >submitting to abuse, and that tops in such situations are like some >kindov predator feeding off such victims is truly close-minded and >prejudiced. Certainly there exist such people, but who are we to know >that thee poster is one ov such people? >It’s too easy to maintain a moral high-ground when looking in from >thee outside. Let’s save thee indignation for Todd Bertrang <g>. >"Let us dream of evanescence, and linger in the beautiful foolishness of
things" —Kakuzo Okakura, _The Book of Tea_ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Denise Robinson, CEO Ambient Inc. > www.ambient.on.ca
Response: