The U.S. government concocted a brilliant plan a few years ago: Why not give Internet surfers in China and Iran the ability to bypass their nations’ notoriously restrictive blocks on Web sites? Soon afterward, the U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau (IBB) invented a way to let people in China and Iran easily route around censorship by using a U.S.-based service to view banned sites such as BBC News, MIT and Amnesty International. But an independent report released Monday reveals that the U.S. government also censors what Chinese and Iranian citizens can see online. Technology used by the IBB, which puts out the Voice of America broadcasts, prevents them from visiting Web addresses that include a peculiar list of verboten keywords. The list includes "ass" (which inadvertently bans usembassy.state.gov), "breast" (breastcancer.com), "hot" (hotmail.com and hotels.com), "pic" (epic.noaa.gov) and "teen" (teens.drugabuse.gov). "The minute you try to temper assistance with evading censorship with judgments about how that power should be used by citizens, you start down a path from which there’s no clear endpoint," said Jonathan Zittrain, a Harvard University law professor and co-author of the report prepared by the OpenNet Initiative. The report was financed in part by the MacArthur Foundation and George Soros’ Open Society Institute. That’s the sad irony in the OpenNet Initiative’s findings: A government agency charged with fighting Internet censorship is quietly censoring the Web itself. The IBB has justified a filtered Internet connection by arguing that it’s inappropriate for U.S. funds to help residents of China and Iran–both of which receive dismal ratings from human rights group Freedom House–from viewing pornography. In the abstract, the argument is a reasonable one. If the IBB’s service had blocked only hard-core pornographic Web sites, few people would object. Instead, the list unintentionally reveals its author’s views of what’s appropriate and inappropriate. The official naughty-keyword list displays a conservative bias that labels any Web address with "gay" in them as verboten–a decision that affects thousands of Web sites that deal with gay and lesbian issues, as well as DioceseOfGaylord.org, a Roman Catholic site. More to the point, the U.S. government could have set a positive example to the world regarding acceptance of gays and lesbians–especially in Iran, which punishes homosexuality with death. In order to reach the IBB censorship-evading service, people in China or Iran connect to contractor Anonymizer’s Web site. Then they can use Anonymizer.com as a kind of jumping-off point, also called a proxy server, to visit Web sites banned by their governments. Ken Berman, who oversees the China and Iran Internet projects at IBB, said Anonymizer came up with the list of dirty words. "We did not," Berman said. "Basically, we said, ‘Implement a porn filter.’ We were looking for serious, hard-core nasty stuff to block…I couldn’t come up with a list (of off-limits words) if my life depended on it." In an e-mail to the OpenNet Initiative on Monday morning, Berman defended the concept of filtering as a way to preserve bandwidth. "Since the U.S. taxpayers are financing this program…there are legitimate limits that may be imposed," his message said. "These limits are hardly restrictive in finding any and all human rights, pro-democracy, dissident and other sites, as well as intellectual, religious, governmental and commercial sites. The porn filtering is a trade-off we feel is a proper balance and that, as noted in your Web release, frees up bandwidth for other uses and users." OpenNet Initiative did its research by connecting to the Anonymizer service from computers in Iran and evaluating which Google Web searches were blocked that theoretically should not be. The report concludes: "For example, usembassy.state.gov is unavailable due to the presence of the letters ‘ass’ within the server’s host name, and sussex.police.uk is unavailable for the same reason. In addition, the words ‘my’ and ‘tv,’ which are also domain suffixes, are filtered by IBB Anonymizer. As a consequence, all Web hosts registered within the domain name systems of Malaysia and Tuvalu are unavailable." Harvard University’s Berkman Center worked on the project, as did the University of Toronto’s Nart Villeneuve and Michelle Levesque. They tested only connections from Iran, but Anonymizer said the same list of keywords was used for China. The U.S. government "asked us to filter broadly based on keywords to generally restrict" Web sites, says Lance Cottrell, founder and president of San Diego-based Anonymizer. "What they didn’t want to get into was something complex, fine-grained filtering which is going to try to remove all the porn. What they wanted was something that would generally remove most of the adult content while not blocking most of the information that these people need." Cottrell said Anonymizer would manually unblock non-pornographic Web sites if requested by Chinese or Iranian Net surfers. "Literally, we have never been contacted with a complaint about overbroad blocking," he said. Monday’s report also takes a swipe at IBB and Anonymizer for not using the SSL encryption method to scramble the Web browsing behavior of Iranian citizens. "I would think that if the U.S. government is going to go through the trouble of funding and offering the service, they might offer the more secure one," Harvard’s Zittrain said. Anonymizer’s Cottrell said he discontinued that feature because "it seemed to cause trouble for a lot of people. The utilization of the service went way down." Iran currently doesn’t monitor the contents of Web pages downloaded. But if that changed, encryption would be turned back on, Cottrell said. (Because China does do that kind of monitoring, SSL is already enabled for Chinese users.) This episode represents a temporary black eye for IBB, but it should also serve as a permanent lesson to the agency. When American taxpayers are paying the bill, any "anticensorship" scheme needs to be beyond reproach. biography Declan McCullagh is CNET News.com’s Washington, D.C., correspondent. He chronicles the busy intersection between technology and politics. Before that, he worked for several years as Washington bureau chief for Wired News. He has also worked as a reporter for The Netly News, Time magazine and HotWired. More Perspectives

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Sounds like a bug in the computer program, it should be doing "whole word" searching not just a character string pattern search for the word ass anywhere in a string.  This is a very basic mistake made by a lot of beginner programmers when writing search algorithms.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The U.S. government concocted a brilliant plan a few years > ago: Why not give Internet surfers in China and Iran the > ability to bypass their nations’ notoriously restrictive blocks > on Web sites? > Soon afterward, the U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau > (IBB) invented a way to let people in China and Iran easily route > around censorship by using a U.S.-based service to view > banned sites such as BBC News, MIT and Amnesty > International. But an independent report released Monday reveals that > the > U.S. government also censors what Chinese and Iranian > citizens can see online. Technology used by the IBB, which puts > out the Voice of America broadcasts, prevents them from visiting > Web addresses that include a peculiar list of verboten keywords. > The list includes "ass" (which inadvertently bans > usembassy.state.gov), "breast" (breastcancer.com), "hot" > (hotmail.com and hotels.com), "pic" (epic.noaa.gov) and "teen" > (teens.drugabuse.gov). > "The minute you try to temper assistance with evading > censorship with judgments about how that power should be > used by citizens, you start down a path from which there’s no > clear endpoint," said Jonathan Zittrain, a Harvard University law > professor and co-author of the report prepared by the OpenNet > Initiative. The report was financed in part by the MacArthur > Foundation and George Soros’ Open Society Institute. > That’s the sad irony in the OpenNet Initiative’s findings: A > government agency charged with fighting Internet censorship is > quietly censoring the Web itself. The IBB has justified a filtered > Internet connection by arguing that it’s inappropriate for U.S. > funds to help residents of China and Iran–both of which receive > dismal ratings from human rights group Freedom House–from > viewing pornography. > In the abstract, the argument is a reasonable one. If the IBB’s > service had blocked only hard-core pornographic Web sites, few people > would object. > Instead, the list unintentionally reveals its author’s views of > what’s appropriate and inappropriate. The official > naughty-keyword list displays a conservative bias that labels > any Web address with "gay" in them as verboten–a decision > that affects thousands of Web sites that deal with gay and > lesbian issues, as well as DioceseOfGaylord.org, a Roman > Catholic site. > More to the point, the U.S. government could have set a positive > example to the world regarding acceptance of gays and > lesbians–especially in Iran, which punishes homosexuality with > death. In order to reach the IBB censorship-evading service, people in > China or Iran connect to contractor Anonymizer’s Web site. > Then they can use Anonymizer.com as a kind of jumping-off > point, also called a proxy server, to visit Web sites banned by > their governments. > Ken Berman, who oversees the China and Iran Internet projects > at IBB, said Anonymizer came up with the list of dirty words. > "We did not," Berman said. "Basically, we said, ‘Implement a > porn filter.’ We were looking for serious, hard-core nasty stuff to > block…I couldn’t come up with a list (of off-limits words) if my life > depended on it." > In an e-mail to the OpenNet Initiative on Monday morning, > Berman defended the concept of filtering as a way to preserve > bandwidth. "Since the U.S. taxpayers are financing this > program…there are legitimate limits that may be imposed," his > message said. "These limits are hardly restrictive in finding any > and all human rights, pro-democracy, dissident and other sites, > as well as intellectual, religious, governmental and commercial > sites. The porn filtering is a trade-off we feel is a proper balance > and that, as noted in your Web release, frees up bandwidth for > other uses and users." > OpenNet Initiative did its research by connecting to the > Anonymizer service from computers in Iran and evaluating > which Google Web searches were blocked that theoretically > should not be. The report concludes: "For example, usembassy.state.gov > is > unavailable due to the presence of the letters ‘ass’ within the > server’s host name, and sussex.police.uk is unavailable for the > same reason. In addition, the words ‘my’ and ‘tv,’ which are also > domain suffixes, are filtered by IBB Anonymizer. As a > consequence, all Web hosts registered within the domain name > systems of Malaysia and Tuvalu are unavailable." > Harvard University’s Berkman Center worked on the project, > as did the University of Toronto’s Nart Villeneuve and > Michelle Levesque. They tested only connections from Iran, but > Anonymizer said the same list of keywords was used for > China. The U.S. government "asked us to filter broadly based on > keywords to generally restrict" Web sites, says Lance Cottrell, > founder and president of San Diego-based Anonymizer. "What > they didn’t want to get into was something complex, fine-grained > filtering which is going to try to remove all the porn. What they > wanted was something that would generally remove most of the > adult content while not blocking most of the information that > these people need." Cottrell said Anonymizer would manually unblock > non-pornographic Web sites if requested by Chinese or Iranian > Net surfers. "Literally, we have never been contacted with a > complaint about overbroad blocking," he said. Monday’s report also > takes a swipe > at IBB and Anonymizer for not using the SSL encryption method to > scramble the Web > browsing behavior of Iranian citizens. "I would think that if the > U.S. government is going to go through the trouble of funding > and offering the service, they might offer the more secure one," > Harvard’s Zittrain said. > Anonymizer’s Cottrell said he discontinued that feature because > "it seemed to cause trouble for a lot of people. The utilization of > the service went way down." Iran currently doesn’t monitor the > contents of Web pages downloaded. But if that changed, > encryption would be turned back on, Cottrell said. (Because > China does do that kind of monitoring, SSL is already enabled > for Chinese users.) > This episode represents a temporary black eye for IBB, but it > should also serve as a permanent lesson to the agency. When > American taxpayers are paying the bill, any "anticensorship" > scheme needs to be beyond reproach. > biography > Declan McCullagh is CNET News.com’s Washington, D.C., > correspondent. He chronicles the busy intersection between > technology and politics. Before that, he worked for several years > as Washington bureau chief for Wired News. He has also > worked as a reporter for The Netly News, Time magazine and > HotWired. > More Perspectives

Hey, why not let ‘em look, pretty soon we’ll all be one big happy nation anyway…. TG

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I think the point was that we are hypocritical. We criticize Those countries for censorship, then we censor what we let them see. Pot Kettle Black.

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And we cant even get the search algorithm right, sheesh.  Google’s already the biggest censor in the world but at least they have better programmers than the GOV so I’m sure they are already doing a better job and we dont even know it.

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>I think the point was that we are hypocritical. We criticize Those > countries for censorship, then we censor what we let them see. Pot > Kettle Black.

Does it matter that 1 party wants to free them, and the other wants to keep them enslaved? See ya, John

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One party wants to under mind the other party by showing diffent pictures, but only the pictures the first party wants the second party to see. Doesn’t sound free to me. To use an analogy: Some scientolgist wants to influence my thinking so he subverts my computer/internet search etc. so that I can only see information positive about Scientology. – same deal.  Neither is about freedom.

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  By ELLSWORTH CARTER     ROSEAU, Dominica, Nov 21 (AP) — A strong earthquake shook the  Caribbean islands of Dominica and Guadeloupe early Sunday, destroying  at least a half dozen buildings and injuring several people.   The  temblor had a preliminary magnitude of 6.0, said John Minsch, a  seismologist at the U.S. National Earthquake Information Service. Its  epicenter was about 28 miles north-northwest of Dominica, near the  Guadeloupe archipelago of Les Saintes.     At least six houses were destroyed and others were damaged in  Terre-de-Bas, one of the islands in the chain, private Radio Caraibes  reported.  Several people were injured in mainland Guadeloupe in the  southern towns of Trois-Rivieres and Basse-Terre, the radio station  reported. The injuries were not serious.    In Dominica, several homes and buildings were damaged in the northern  part of the former British colony, including three churches, national  disaster coordinator Cecil Shillingford said.    No injuries were  reported in Dominica, Shillingford said.    The facade of a Roman  Catholic church collapsed in Portsmouth, north of the capital, Roseau,  said Ian Douglas, a parliamentary representative from the area.    There was nobody in the church at the time. Sunday services were  previously canceled because Catholics in Dominica were celebrating a  special feast in the southern part of the country.  Portsmouth’s  hospital also suffered damage and patients were evacuated to a nearby  building, Douglas told state-run Dominica Broadcasting Corp.      The earthquake lasted several seconds and was felt as far away as  Antigua and Barbuda, some 125 miles north of the epicenter. No damage  was reported there. — Ken Tough

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Oops, I was just about to book a trip to Guadeloupe – though to a part as far as you can get from Basse Terre, etc.  I wonder if the earthquake upset the public water supply mains on Grande Terre.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   By ELLSWORTH CARTER >     ROSEAU, Dominica, Nov 21 (AP) — A strong earthquake shook the >  Caribbean islands of Dominica and Guadeloupe early Sunday, destroying >  at least a half dozen buildings and injuring several people.   The >  temblor had a preliminary magnitude of 6.0, said John Minsch, a >  seismologist at the U.S. National Earthquake Information Service. Its >  epicenter was about 28 miles north-northwest of Dominica, near the >  Guadeloupe archipelago of Les Saintes. >     At least six houses were destroyed and others were damaged in >  Terre-de-Bas, one of the islands in the chain, private Radio Caraibes >  reported.  Several people were injured in mainland Guadeloupe in the >  southern towns of Trois-Rivieres and Basse-Terre, the radio station >  reported. The injuries were not serious.

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I think there might be some confusion here: Terre-de-bas is one of the nearby Saintes islands, whereas Basse Terre is one of the 2 islands that make up Guadeloupe (often referred as "le continent" by the locals). Check http://www.lesilesdeguadeloupe.com/ for more touristic info on all the Guadeloupe islands. About the earthquake: If you speak French, you could check the TV/radio web site on http://www.rfo.fr/ or the French ministry for overseas department http://www.outre-mer.gouv.fr/outremer/front Otherwise, I’m sure there’ll be more info on http://news.google.com/ Cheers, mld R J Carpenter a

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The Catholic church has lost all credibility with its pedophilia and > > advocacy of socialism and governmental theft. > > Love Your Taxes, Says England’s Catholic Church > > Mon Feb 23, 9:52 AM ET  Add Oddly Enough – Reuters to My Yahoo! > > LONDON (Reuters) – The Catholic Church of England and Wales launched a > > passionate defense Monday of one of society’s most reviled features — > > taxes. > > In a 40-page booklet entitled "Taxation for the Common Good," the > > Church argued that instead of an unfair penalty, taxation should be > > seen as a way all people can play a moral part in public life. > > "Taxes are very much based on the principles of solidarity, which is > > based on the commandment to love your neighbor," former Bishop Howard > > Tripp, Chairman of the Church’s Committee for Public Life, told > > Reuters. > > "This document is suggesting taxes are a way to play our part and it > > is something we should be pleased to do…It’s all part of our duty to > > our neighbor, stemming from our duty as social animals," he said. > > The Roman Catholic Church, 4.6 million strong in the UK and Northern > > Ireland, said the booklet was not a party political statement. It > > makes no specific references to the tax policy of British Chancellor > > (Finance Minister) Gordon Brown, who has hiked taxes to help fund the > > country’s ailing health service. > > Britons pay a basic rate on income of 22 percent and 40 percent on any > > earnings over 29,900 pounds ($55,550), but the church’s booklet does > > not say what level of taxation was "fair." > > While acknowledging that loving your neighbor might be easier than > > loving taxes, Tripp said the motive behind publishing the booklet was > > to stimulate public discussion and to place taxation on a moral > > footing. > > He said tax dodgers were not helping themselves or their community: > > "If a person felt bound not to pay some tax to a certain cause they > > disagree with then they must follow their conscience, but I would urge > > them to look at other ways to deal with that problem, such as lobbying > > members of parliament." > Will the author of the above admit that the Church recognizes the right and > duty of all to refuse to support societies that participate in plans and > preparations that are predicated on a will and capacity to commit mass > murder? > I should appreciate it if someone provides me with the e-mail address of > Bishop Howard Tripp. > http://www.rcsouthwark.co.uk/bishops.html > Karen

Thank you Karen, I shall write to him this evening. DJL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you. > Daniel J. Lavigne >        Tired of supporting societal insanity? > Tired of  lies that would have you ignore your > duty to refuse to support societies that would > commit mass murder? >               JOIN THE TAX REFUSAL >                 http://www.taxrefusal.com

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Taxation is robbery.

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> Taxation is robbery.

Property is theft. –John Baglow

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> Taxation is robbery. > Property is theft.

Your door is ajar. Don Wagner

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> > Taxation is robbery. > Property is theft. > –John Baglow

No, John. Property is the solution. You see: In the beginning, there was the jungle. In the beginning there was common property. There was the carcass. And the wolves and lions would growl and snarl at each other. And the frenzied sharks would bite each other. Then man said "Lets invent private property and divide the carcass so that we can sit at the table and have civilized conversation while we eat." Which is what they did. And the socialist came along and said "This is no fun. Lets put all the food in one big pot so that we can growl at, and snarl at, and bite each other."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Catholic church has lost all credibility with its pedophilia and > advocacy of socialism and governmental theft. > Love Your Taxes, Says England’s Catholic Church > Mon Feb 23, 9:52 AM ET  Add Oddly Enough – Reuters to My Yahoo! > LONDON (Reuters) – The Catholic Church of England and Wales launched a > passionate defense Monday of one of society’s most reviled features — > taxes. > In a 40-page booklet entitled "Taxation for the Common Good," the > Church argued that instead of an unfair penalty, taxation should be > seen as a way all people can play a moral part in public life. > "Taxes are very much based on the principles of solidarity, which is > based on the commandment to love your neighbor," former Bishop Howard > Tripp, Chairman of the Church’s Committee for Public Life, told > Reuters. > "This document is suggesting taxes are a way to play our part and it > is something we should be pleased to do…It’s all part of our duty to > our neighbor, stemming from our duty as social animals," he said. > The Roman Catholic Church, 4.6 million strong in the UK and Northern > Ireland, said the booklet was not a party political statement. It > makes no specific references to the tax policy of British Chancellor > (Finance Minister) Gordon Brown, who has hiked taxes to help fund the > country’s ailing health service. > Britons pay a basic rate on income of 22 percent and 40 percent on any > earnings over 29,900 pounds ($55,550), but the church’s booklet does > not say what level of taxation was "fair." > While acknowledging that loving your neighbor might be easier than > loving taxes, Tripp said the motive behind publishing the booklet was > to stimulate public discussion and to place taxation on a moral > footing. > He said tax dodgers were not helping themselves or their community: > "If a person felt bound not to pay some tax to a certain cause they > disagree with then they must follow their conscience, but I would urge > them to look at other ways to deal with that problem, such as lobbying > members of parliament."

Will the author of the above admit that the Church recognizes the right and duty of all to refuse to support societies that participate in plans and preparations that are predicated on a will and capacity to commit mass murder? I should appreciate it if someone provides me with the e-mail address of Bishop Howard Tripp. Thank you. Daniel J. Lavigne        Tired of supporting societal insanity? Tired of  lies that would have you ignore your duty to refuse to support societies that would commit mass murder?               JOIN THE TAX REFUSAL                 http://www.taxrefusal.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Catholic church has lost all credibility with its pedophilia and > advocacy of socialism and governmental theft. > Love Your Taxes, Says England’s Catholic Church > Mon Feb 23, 9:52 AM ET  Add Oddly Enough – Reuters to My Yahoo! > LONDON (Reuters) – The Catholic Church of England and Wales launched a > passionate defense Monday of one of society’s most reviled features — > taxes. > In a 40-page booklet entitled "Taxation for the Common Good," the > Church argued that instead of an unfair penalty, taxation should be > seen as a way all people can play a moral part in public life. > "Taxes are very much based on the principles of solidarity, which is > based on the commandment to love your neighbor," former Bishop Howard > Tripp, Chairman of the Church’s Committee for Public Life, told > Reuters. > "This document is suggesting taxes are a way to play our part and it > is something we should be pleased to do…It’s all part of our duty to > our neighbor, stemming from our duty as social animals," he said. > The Roman Catholic Church, 4.6 million strong in the UK and Northern > Ireland, said the booklet was not a party political statement. It > makes no specific references to the tax policy of British Chancellor > (Finance Minister) Gordon Brown, who has hiked taxes to help fund the > country’s ailing health service. > Britons pay a basic rate on income of 22 percent and 40 percent on any > earnings over 29,900 pounds ($55,550), but the church’s booklet does > not say what level of taxation was "fair." > While acknowledging that loving your neighbor might be easier than > loving taxes, Tripp said the motive behind publishing the booklet was > to stimulate public discussion and to place taxation on a moral > footing. > He said tax dodgers were not helping themselves or their community: > "If a person felt bound not to pay some tax to a certain cause they > disagree with then they must follow their conscience, but I would urge > them to look at other ways to deal with that problem, such as lobbying > members of parliament." > Will the author of the above admit that the Church recognizes the right and > duty of all to refuse to support societies that participate in plans and > preparations that are predicated on a will and capacity to commit mass > murder? > I should appreciate it if someone provides me with the e-mail address of > Bishop Howard Tripp.

http://www.rcsouthwark.co.uk/bishops.html Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you. > Daniel J. Lavigne >        Tired of supporting societal insanity? > Tired of  lies that would have you ignore your > duty to refuse to support societies that would > commit mass murder? >               JOIN THE TAX REFUSAL >                 http://www.taxrefusal.com

Response:

From Lee K > "Partial birth" seems correct to me: the infant’s body is three quarters > delivered via the birth canal prior to killing.

There is no such medical term. If you want to talk about a medical procedure, then the  proper medical term is required, not some made-up term designed to evoke emotions.

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From Lee K > Of course, that’s what the original post stated.  Just asking Poppy why > there’s no such thing as ‘pro-abortion’ if  the term ‘anti-abortion’ is > correct.

Because you are incorrect. The anti-abortion crowd wants to ban all abortions, and prevent women from getting any kind of abortion legally. The pro-choice crowd recognizes that a woman should have a choice of what she wants to do: Either carry a fetus to full temr, or abort it within the law. Of course, we have abortion legalized not as some fashion statement, but because when abortions were illegal, many women died from botched abortions. The anti-abortion folks don’t want uws to be reminded of that.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Of course, that’s what the original post stated.  Just asking Poppy why >there’s no such thing as ‘pro-abortion’ if  the term ‘anti-abortion’ is >correct. > If someone were pro-abortion, they could support forcing abortion on a woman > whether she wanted it or not.  Pro-abortion means supporting abortion as a > favored means of birth control.  Anti-abortion describes someone who is opposed > to abortion for any reason.  Pro-choice means a woman has the right to decide > about choice, and anti-choice means that someone does not support a woman being > able to decide about abortion, but legally preventing it.  I would like to > state here that I am a supporter of the organization Republicans for Choice. > http://www.republicansforchoice.com/ > -Connie

Good answer, as far as it went.  But what about the term ‘pro-life’?  If someone is ‘pro-choice’, aren’t the choices between life and death?  So the ones that want to limit choice call themselves ‘pro-life’, whereas the press and ‘pro-choice’ crowds want to call them ‘anti-abortion’ (‘anti-death’?). Shouldn’t they be allowed to label themselves, as the ‘pro-choice’ people can?

Response:

From Lee K > Press term is Anti-Abortion, changed from Pro-Life, to make the movement > seem negative.

The term "Pro-Life" was invented by the anti-abortion crowd. Life is an inappropriate term for either side; because we are talking about fetuses, not babies, not "the unborn", not anything that has a legal standing in this nation. If it can’t inherit, it’s not a person. > Press term is Pro-Choice, not Pro-Abortion (and not Anti-life), to make that > movement seem positive.

What shocks me is the Roman Catholic clergy calling for punishment for any Congresscriitter who is Pro-choice.  While the Church is still trying to settle the lawsuits from their own sexual molestations of children, and the coverup of those heinous acts, coupled with their refusal to give women equal status in the Church, they try to act  against a woman’s choice. They’ve overstepped their bounds by entering politics, and their tax-exemptions should be revoked.

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The majority of Americans, paricularly women support freedom of choice for women with an unwanted pregnancy.  So there is no such thing as "pro-abortion".  It is pro-choice. The correct term is abortion in the third tri-mester or late term abortion not partial-birth abortion as the propagandists have labeled it. Mr. Godburn is a bookseller, and not a journalist or anyone of importance, so I wonder why he is quoted here. -Connie

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> The majority of Americans, paricularly women support freedom of choice for > women with an unwanted pregnancy.  So there is no such thing as "pro-abortion". >  It is pro-choice.

Then why the pejorative "anti-abortion" to label the pro-life crowd? The correct term is abortion in the third tri-mester or late > term abortion not partial-birth abortion as the propagandists have labeled

it. "Partial birth" seems correct to me: the infant’s body is three quarters delivered via the birth canal prior to killing. > Mr. Godburn is a bookseller, and not a journalist or anyone of importance, so I > wonder why he is quoted here.

He’s pointing out how the press characterizes issues to suit its own agenda. As far as not being "a journalist or anyone of importance", what does that mean?  If Joe Schmo points out a fact does that lessen the reality of that fact?  If Jayson Blair reports, as a "journalist", does that make what he reports true or somehow important?

Response:

>> The majority of Americans, paricularly women support freedom of choice for > women with an unwanted pregnancy.  So there is no such thing as >"pro-abortion". >  It is pro-choice. >Then why the pejorative "anti-abortion" to label the pro-life crowd?

   It’s counter-propaganda to "pro-life", of course. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The correct term is abortion in the third tri-mester or late > term abortion not partial-birth abortion as the propagandists have labeled >it. >"Partial birth" seems correct to me: the infant’s body is three quarters >delivered via the birth canal prior to killing. > Mr. Godburn is a bookseller, and not a journalist or anyone of importance, >so I > wonder why he is quoted here. >He’s pointing out how the press characterizes issues to suit its own agenda. >As far as not being "a journalist or anyone of importance", what does that >mean?  If Joe Schmo points out a fact does that lessen the reality of that >fact?  If Jayson Blair reports, as a "journalist", does that make what he >reports true or somehow important?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The majority of Americans, paricularly women support freedom of choice for >> women with an unwanted pregnancy.  So there is no such thing as >"pro-abortion". >>  It is pro-choice. >Then why the pejorative "anti-abortion" to label the pro-life crowd? >    It’s counter-propaganda to "pro-life", of course.

Of course, that’s what the original post stated.  Just asking Poppy why there’s no such thing as ‘pro-abortion’ if  the term ‘anti-abortion’ is correct.

Response:

>Of course, that’s what the original post stated.  Just asking Poppy why >there’s no such thing as ‘pro-abortion’ if  the term ‘anti-abortion’ is >correct.

If someone were pro-abortion, they could support forcing abortion on a woman whether she wanted it or not.  Pro-abortion means supporting abortion as a favored means of birth control.  Anti-abortion describes someone who is opposed to abortion for any reason.  Pro-choice means a woman has the right to decide about choice, and anti-choice means that someone does not support a woman being able to decide about abortion, but legally preventing it.  I would like to state here that I am a supporter of the organization Republicans for Choice. http://www.republicansforchoice.com/ -Connie

Response:

Press term is Anti-Abortion, changed from Pro-Life, to make the movement seem negative. Press term is Pro-Choice, not Pro-Abortion (and not Anti-life), to make that movement seem positive. Pro-Choice Bias Clear In Abortion Coverage November 12, 2003 Mark R. Godburn The president recently signed the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, the name this abortion procedure has been known by for years, yet virtually every press story now refers to it by a different name. Whether in print or on the air, the press corps calls this operation "a certain abortion procedure" or "the procedure that doctors call intact dilation and extraction." The funny thing is that these phrases are so vague that every press report also has to carry an additional line stating that this is the procedure "that opponents call partial-birth abortion." Ah, so that’s what they’re talking about. It is ironic that reporters would uniformly adopt vague phrases to replace the concrete. It goes against the journalistic code. Journalists are wordsmiths. They want to make their point with as little verbiage and doubt as possible. Editors frown on words that have to be explained or footnoted, especially when there is a perfectly good and understandable phrase that has been used for years. So that leaves an obvious question. Why did the press adopt these vague phrases that require extra explanation? The answer is simple. The press is on the pro-choice side. The press wants to help the pro-choice side keep all abortion procedures – including the procedure that doctors call intact dilation and extraction – legal. The name change began a few years ago when the pro-choice side realized it was losing the public debate over this procedure. Some 70 percent of Americans are against the procedure, in which a fetus is partially delivered, then aborted (hence the name partial-birth abortion). The pro-choice folks decided they needed a less graphic term so that the nature of the procedure wouldn’t be so obvious. They decided to give it the technical name that some doctors use. The beauty of this name is that intact dilation and extraction sounds like a dental procedure. And that’s exactly what the pro-choice side wants. Fewer people will object to something that sounds so benign. Indeed, if the pro-choice side had its way, you’d never even hear the word "abortion." All abortions would simply be "medical procedures." The amazing thing is how the pro-choice side got the news media to switch to the vague "intact dilation" phrase. Pro-choice lobbyists and lawmakers told editors, producers, anchors and reporters that the phrase partial-birth abortion was somehow technically incorrect. They said it was a term used by "extremists." They said that the proper term was one that some doctors use, even though few people had ever heard of it. And virtually overnight the press corps began using the new term. Before I am charged with being a conspiracy theorist, I am not claiming that the press held a national convention and voted to use the term "intact dilation and extraction." However it happened, it is indisputable that news media people did somehow manage to get on the same page very quickly. And this wasn’t the first time the press has helped the pro-choice side with a name change. For decades those opposed to legalized abortion were known as the "pro-life" side. But not long ago that name changed, too. The pro-choice side – again with the cooperation of the news media – suddenly began referring to the other side as the "anti-abortion" side. They turned a positive-sounding name into a negative-sounding one, which is a detriment to any cause. When this change occurred, I asked a couple of major newspapers what was going on. After many phone calls and much hemming and hawing and denial, I was told that the phrase "pro-life" was offensive to many people on the pro-choice side, and the sensitive press, not wishing to offend anyone, agreed to the name change. Of course, those on the pro-life side could also claim that the phrase "pro-choice" is offensive to them. But I am willing to bet that the press would never agree to change the name of the pro-choice side to whatever their opponents wished to call them. The press’ wholesale embrace of pro-choice terminology not only breaks the journalistic rule against the use of vague verbiage. It more importantly breaks the rule against taking sides in news reporting. Mark R. Godburn is a bookseller in Great Barrington, Mass.

Response:

> The S.S. America? She entered service in, I believe, 1940, and has the > double stacks of red, white, and blue. > Ben

Not the S.S. America compared the photo http://www.flare.net/users/e9ee52a/America%20Lv%20NYC.htm Not the same lines and the windows in the bow are different.

Response:

It’s the United States Lines livery… no doubt about that. US Lines had (as far as I can remember) two ships returned to non-military duty in 49:  SS Washington.. which it definitely is not. The other: SS America It’s an awkward angle.. and not a very good picture. Babette

Response:

Ben, Thank you so much for the link to the America.I sailed her in 1950 from NY to Southampton and return. I worked at the time for a marine insurance co. on John Street in NY and she was one of the firms account. Beause of that I was invited to the Captains quarters for tea alongside a few other pax, tour of the ship and later cocktails again with other pax. The ship had many Roman Catholic priests on their way to Rome.and I was seated with four of the Fathers on the voyage from NY to Southampton. On the return trip to NY I was seasick for close to the 7 days on board First and last time.   Thank you again memories of 53 years ago. S’nd I

Response:

>It’s an awkward angle.. and not a very good picture.

I know what you mean, Babette.  I’ve been looking at that image, trying to figure it out, too.  Very difficult to pick up the key elements to identify the ship exactly.                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

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>In article > There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. >Here is a similar picture: >http://members.tripod.com/richard_a14/PagesMaidenVoyage.htm

It could be that the art.com web site has the wrong date (1949) and that’s what’s throwing us off. Karen                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In article >> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower >> Manhattan. >Here is a similar picture: >http://members.tripod.com/richard_a14/PagesMaidenVoyage.htm > It could be that the art.com web site has the wrong date (1949) and > that’s what’s throwing us off. > Karen

Bingo Comparing the photos in Toms link to the 32 inch picture on my wall there is no question this is the SS United States and the date must be wrong. I purchased it from Art.com after seeing it in a client’s office. The only reason was the year of the photo. This has to be 1952 not 1949. Thanks

Response:

I doubt the picture is 1949 but it is 1952 and the ship is ss United States. if it really was 1949 only ship it could be would be ss America. both are United states lines. Jaap

> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship > it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it –

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm > Thanks

Response:

Spent a few hours today with the webs SS America. How sad it was seeing to what a sorrowful sight she has become There should be some sort of maritine law that these lovely ships should be given an honourable burial ship. S’nd I .

Response:

There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it – http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm Thanks

Response:

>http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… >99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm

I’d love to know, too, as I’m interested in posters of liners in New York, but the URL says "Oops, we could not find the page you were looking for" and  that some pages may have been moved or renamed. Could you find it again and repost? Thanks! Karen                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

> I’d love to know, too, as I’m interested in posters of liners in New > York, but the URL says "Oops, we could not find the page you were > looking for" and  that some pages may have been moved or renamed. > Could you find it again and repost?

I was able to access the page by manualy pasting the url. Try clicking on this version. <http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/PD- -10099145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm> — Charles

Response:

> I was able to access the page by manualy pasting the url. Try clicking > on this version. > <http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/PD- > -10099145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm>

Or go to http://www.art.com/ and under subjects go to Ocean Liners. It is on the first page of Ocean Liners. — Charles

Response:

>> I’d love to know, too, as I’m interested in posters of liners in New > York, but the URL says "Oops, we could not find the page you were > looking for" and  that some pages may have been moved or renamed. > Could you find it again and repost? >I was able to access the page by manualy pasting the url. Try clicking >on this version. ><http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/PD- >-10099145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm>

Thanks, Charles! The image is too small and "smokey" to tell, but the print on the right side of the web page entitled "Liner in Harbor" is an HAL ship. I see this site has some nice NORMANDIE prints, as well.  A nice find. Karen                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship > it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it –

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… > 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm > Thanks

Just a guess…but, it kind of looks like the United States.

Response:

In article > There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship

I have no idea what ship but thanks for posting the link. I have been looking for some of the posters of Ocean Liners they sell on that web site that I saw on the wall of one of my favorite restaurants here DC, and there they are on art.com!!! — Charles

Response:

> Just a guess…but, it kind of looks like the United States.

Ahem. The SS United States began sailing in 1952. — Charles

Response:

> Just a guess…but, it kind of looks like the United States. > Ahem. The SS United States began sailing in 1952. > — > Charles

<blushing> a little before my time, Charles. : )

Response:

> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship > it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it – > http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… > 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm > Thanks

I have no idea, however, when you have long wrapping URLs to post, use tinyurl to make it easier for the rest of us. The url for this one is: http://tinyurl.com/ko95 Lots shorter, huh! Good luck in your search! — Ray Contreras Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com

Response:

>There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower >Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship >it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it – >http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… >99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm >Thanks

SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and blue are the tipoff. "The fastest ship in the world."  Good luck finding a cruise ship today that will average 36 knots across the North Atlantic Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea.  If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."         — Abraham Lincoln

Response:

> SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and > blue are the tipoff.

The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks? — Charles

Response:

The 3 colors of the stack, with the white where it is, seems to indicate that it might be one of the US ships that were predecessors to the United States.  Maybe the Independence? –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and > blue are the tipoff. > The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is > not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in > black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks? > — > Charles

Response:

>>SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and >blue are the tipoff. > The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is > not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in > black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks?

The S.S. America? She entered service in, I believe, 1940, and has the double stacks of red, white, and blue. Ben

Response:

If it is the America I found I nice site about her: http://www.flare.net/users/e9ee52a/S.S.%20America.htm Ben S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and >> blue are the tipoff. > The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is > not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in > black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks? > The S.S. America? She entered service in, I believe, 1940, and has the > double stacks of red, white, and blue. > Ben

Response:

There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it – http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm Thanks

Response:

>http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… >99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm

I’d love to know, too, as I’m interested in posters of liners in New York, but the URL says "Oops, we could not find the page you were looking for" and  that some pages may have been moved or renamed. Could you find it again and repost? Thanks! Karen                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

> I’d love to know, too, as I’m interested in posters of liners in New > York, but the URL says "Oops, we could not find the page you were > looking for" and  that some pages may have been moved or renamed. > Could you find it again and repost?

I was able to access the page by manualy pasting the url. Try clicking on this version. <http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/PD- -10099145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm> — Charles

Response:

> I was able to access the page by manualy pasting the url. Try clicking > on this version. > <http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/PD- > -10099145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm>

Or go to http://www.art.com/ and under subjects go to Ocean Liners. It is on the first page of Ocean Liners. — Charles

Response:

>> I’d love to know, too, as I’m interested in posters of liners in New > York, but the URL says "Oops, we could not find the page you were > looking for" and  that some pages may have been moved or renamed. > Could you find it again and repost? >I was able to access the page by manualy pasting the url. Try clicking >on this version. ><http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/PD- >-10099145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm>

Thanks, Charles! The image is too small and "smokey" to tell, but the print on the right side of the web page entitled "Liner in Harbor" is an HAL ship. I see this site has some nice NORMANDIE prints, as well.  A nice find. Karen                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship > it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it –

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… > 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm > Thanks

Just a guess…but, it kind of looks like the United States.

Response:

In article > There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship

I have no idea what ship but thanks for posting the link. I have been looking for some of the posters of Ocean Liners they sell on that web site that I saw on the wall of one of my favorite restaurants here DC, and there they are on art.com!!! — Charles

Response:

> Just a guess…but, it kind of looks like the United States.

Ahem. The SS United States began sailing in 1952. — Charles

Response:

> Just a guess…but, it kind of looks like the United States. > Ahem. The SS United States began sailing in 1952. > — > Charles

<blushing> a little before my time, Charles. : )

Response:

> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship > it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it – > http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… > 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm > Thanks

I have no idea, however, when you have long wrapping URLs to post, use tinyurl to make it easier for the rest of us. The url for this one is: http://tinyurl.com/ko95 Lots shorter, huh! Good luck in your search! — Ray Contreras Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com

Response:

>There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower >Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship >it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it – >http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… >99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm >Thanks

SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and blue are the tipoff. "The fastest ship in the world."  Good luck finding a cruise ship today that will average 36 knots across the North Atlantic Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea.  If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."         — Abraham Lincoln

Response:

> SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and > blue are the tipoff.

The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks? — Charles

Response:

The 3 colors of the stack, with the white where it is, seems to indicate that it might be one of the US ships that were predecessors to the United States.  Maybe the Independence? –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and > blue are the tipoff. > The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is > not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in > black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks? > — > Charles

Response:

>>SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and >blue are the tipoff. > The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is > not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in > black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks?

The S.S. America? She entered service in, I believe, 1940, and has the double stacks of red, white, and blue. Ben

Response:

If it is the America I found I nice site about her: http://www.flare.net/users/e9ee52a/S.S.%20America.htm Ben S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> SS United States is correct.  The double stacks painted red, white and >> blue are the tipoff. > The title of the print is New York Skyline 1949. Unless that title is > not correct it could not be the SS United States. Also, the print is in > black and white, how can you tell the colors of the stacks? > The S.S. America? She entered service in, I believe, 1940, and has the > double stacks of red, white, and blue. > Ben

Response:

> The S.S. America? She entered service in, I believe, 1940, and has the > double stacks of red, white, and blue. > Ben

Not the S.S. America compared the photo http://www.flare.net/users/e9ee52a/America%20Lv%20NYC.htm Not the same lines and the windows in the bow are different.

Response:

It’s the United States Lines livery… no doubt about that. US Lines had (as far as I can remember) two ships returned to non-military duty in 49:  SS Washington.. which it definitely is not. The other: SS America It’s an awkward angle.. and not a very good picture. Babette

Response:

Ben, Thank you so much for the link to the America.I sailed her in 1950 from NY to Southampton and return. I worked at the time for a marine insurance co. on John Street in NY and she was one of the firms account. Beause of that I was invited to the Captains quarters for tea alongside a few other pax, tour of the ship and later cocktails again with other pax. The ship had many Roman Catholic priests on their way to Rome.and I was seated with four of the Fathers on the voyage from NY to Southampton. On the return trip to NY I was seasick for close to the 7 days on board First and last time.   Thank you again memories of 53 years ago. S’nd I

Response:

>It’s an awkward angle.. and not a very good picture.

I know what you mean, Babette.  I’ve been looking at that image, trying to figure it out, too.  Very difficult to pick up the key elements to identify the ship exactly.                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

>In article > There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. >Here is a similar picture: >http://members.tripod.com/richard_a14/PagesMaidenVoyage.htm

It could be that the art.com web site has the wrong date (1949) and that’s what’s throwing us off. Karen                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In article >> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower >> Manhattan. >Here is a similar picture: >http://members.tripod.com/richard_a14/PagesMaidenVoyage.htm > It could be that the art.com web site has the wrong date (1949) and > that’s what’s throwing us off. > Karen

Bingo Comparing the photos in Toms link to the 32 inch picture on my wall there is no question this is the SS United States and the date must be wrong. I purchased it from Art.com after seeing it in a client’s office. The only reason was the year of the photo. This has to be 1952 not 1949. Thanks

Response:

I doubt the picture is 1949 but it is 1952 and the ship is ss United States. if it really was 1949 only ship it could be would be ss America. both are United states lines. Jaap

> There is a vintage poster – NY Skyline. 1949 – showing a ship and lower > Manhattan. I have on the wall in my home office but have no idea what ship > it is. Anyone know. Here is a link to a picture of it –

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/ui–2DB3EA7B8E2445EDBAAED9F8AA001E58/… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 99145/sOrig–CAT/sOrigID–9378/New_York_Skyline__1949.htm > Thanks

Response:

Spent a few hours today with the webs SS America. How sad it was seeing to what a sorrowful sight she has become There should be some sort of maritine law that these lovely ships should be given an honourable burial ship. S’nd I .

Response:

>  I find it amazing that so many people are ready to declare Mel >  Gibson’s film anti-semitic when virtually no one seems to have seen >  it. And … condemning the man for something his father may or may not >  have said — tsk tsk.  Sounds like the kind of prejudice that >  anti-semites feed on. You finger pointers need to sit down and >  carefully contemplate your finger.

Gibson himself seems to have engineered the entire shebang from square one.  Before the film was screened by _anyone_ he appeared on three shows to defend his film against Jewish critics. Problem was there had been none.  The only statements made by Jews were that they wanted to see the film.  Once Gibson had the "Jewish problem" waving like a red flag he then screened his film for fundagelicals and conservative Catholics, plus token Jew, Drudge. It’s Gibson who orchestrated a campaign to depict himself and the film as victims of "some Jews." Gibson is a member of a small sect of former Roman Catholics.  They reject Vatican II (including its statement repudiating any supposed Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus) and most repudiate the validity of any popes elected after it.  They are ardently conservative in religious ritual and theology, and overall their members profile as extreme Right Wingers.  The Wanderer newspaper used to be a major organ of these breakaways who style themselves "Catholic Traditionalist.|"   It seethed with persecution mania and saw enemies in all the usual Right Wing places. Those who have followed the development of post-Vatican II heretical groups of Catholics will be familiar with Gibson’s father’s bizarro and extreme writings. Robert

Response:

> Earl, many of your posts seem increasingly irrational. Before you > press the send key, please ask yourself, "Do I really want to say > this?". Not even I would want to see you go the way of Mel.

Who had Jesus nailed to the cross, a bunch of Jewish Liberals or Jewish Conservatives?  Who were collaborationists with the Romans? Who used the Romans for their own agenda? Did I get that part of the story wrong? Jesus was a religious radical and a danger to the existing religious power structure. Those to blame historically have never been the Jews, Christ and his followers were Jewish, it was a conflict in their own community. We can blame conservatism and conservatives. These are the true historical killers of Christ. Earl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Earl, many of your posts seem increasingly irrational. Before you >> press the send key, please ask yourself, "Do I really want to say >> this?". Not even I would want to see you go the way of Mel. >Who had Jesus nailed to the cross, a bunch of Jewish Liberals or >Jewish Conservatives?  Who were collaborationists with the Romans? >Who used the Romans for their own agenda? >Did I get that part of the story wrong? >Jesus was a religious radical and a danger to the existing >religious power structure. >Those to blame historically have never been the Jews, Christ >and his followers were Jewish, it was a conflict in their own >community. >We can blame conservatism and conservatives. >These are the true historical killers of Christ. >Earl >I see.  Jesus was crucified by the Republicans.

   If you’d paid more attention to the secret messages encrypted in the Bible Codes, you’d have known that all along.

Response:

It  is  important  to  hear  what  current  reactionaries  are doing==just  as  we  carefully follow  liberal  thought.

Response:

> I find it amazing that so many people are ready to declare Mel > Gibson’s film anti-semitic when virtually no one seems to have seen > it. And … condemning the man for something his father may or may not > have said — tsk tsk.  Sounds like the kind of prejudice that > anti-semites feed on. You finger pointers need to sit down and > carefully contemplate your finger.

The Story of Jesus can be played from almost any direction ideologically. I view it the outcome on the cross as a victory of conservative forces over more socialistic ones. Fortunately it was only a temporary victory. Earl

Response:

Has anyone had any experience in staying in monestries in England, France, Spain or Portugal. Next year ( around September/October) we plan to visit these countries and would like to stay in a monestery occasionally – one of the reasons for this paeticular trip is to follow in a small way the footsteps of two of my great uncles who were Cistercian monks from Lulworth, Dorset. Any informations, addresses, e mail addresses costs etc would be appreciated thank you Gwen Kelly — Gwen Kelly

Response:

"G.Kelly" wrote > Has anyone had any experience in staying in monestries in England, France, > Spain or Portugal. > Next year ( around September/October) we plan to visit these countries and > would like to stay in a monestery occasionally – one of the reasons for this > paeticular trip is to follow in a small way the footsteps of two of my great > uncles who were Cistercian monks from Lulworth, Dorset.

Although a few monasteries (spelt thus) will have guest houses, most will only accommodate visitors who are retreatants – and monasteries do tend to be male-only There are a number of former monasteries converted to B&B or guesthouse accommodation including http://www.kayukay.co.uk/kentbandb/greyfriarscanterbury.html Canterbury – 12th Century gatehouse to a Franciscan monastery http://www.manab.activehotels.com/MIL Llanrwst, Gwynedd, North Wales – Built as an Abbey in 1850 on the site of  13th century Cistercian Monastery. http://www.the-george-hotel.activehotels.com/HOT Okehampton, Devon – 15th century thatched coaching inn was used as a monastery when it was built and this theme has been carried on The only monasteries I could find which do tourist orientated accommodation are: http://www.caldey-island.co.uk/ Tenby, South Wales – Self catering cottage. May be available in low season for short breaks of less than a week. Monks first came to Caldey in the 6th Century. In the 12th Century Benedictines from St Dogmaels, Pembrokeshire, set up a priory on the island. They remained until the Dissolution in 1536. Much of their medieval priory is still standing. In 1906 pioneering Anglican Benedictines purchased Caldey and built the present Italianate style abbey which now towers above the village. They were received into the Roman Catholic Church in 1913. Their stay was relatively short, financial difficulties forcing them to sell in 1925. The present monks of Caldey Abbey are Cistercians, a stricter, contemplative offshoot of the Benedictine Order. They came from Scourmont Abbey in Belgium in 1929, re-establishing the strong Cistercian tradition in Wales. http://ewell-monastery.co.uk/ Kent, South-East England – Accommodates guests but does not state whether or not men only. For general tourist information on the Lulworth / Doreset area see http://www.visiteastdorset.com/ http://www.dorset-cc.gov.uk/ click on ‘Tourism & Events’ then click on ‘Enter’ Owain

Response:

Thanks for the useful post. A truly cool book: The World Is Already Yours Conscious living in the real world www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc…)

Response:

Has anyone had any experience in staying in monestries in England, France, Spain or Portugal. Next year ( around September/October) we plan to visit these countries and would like to stay in a monestery occasionally – one of the reasons for this paeticular trip is to follow in a small way the footsteps of two of my great uncles who were Cistercian monks from Lulworth, Dorset. Any informations, addresses, e mail addresses costs etc would be appreciated thank you Gwen Kelly — Gwen Kelly

Response:

"G.Kelly" wrote > Has anyone had any experience in staying in monestries in England, France, > Spain or Portugal. > Next year ( around September/October) we plan to visit these countries and > would like to stay in a monestery occasionally – one of the reasons for this > paeticular trip is to follow in a small way the footsteps of two of my great > uncles who were Cistercian monks from Lulworth, Dorset.

Although a few monasteries (spelt thus) will have guest houses, most will only accommodate visitors who are retreatants – and monasteries do tend to be male-only There are a number of former monasteries converted to B&B or guesthouse accommodation including http://www.kayukay.co.uk/kentbandb/greyfriarscanterbury.html Canterbury – 12th Century gatehouse to a Franciscan monastery http://www.manab.activehotels.com/MIL Llanrwst, Gwynedd, North Wales – Built as an Abbey in 1850 on the site of  13th century Cistercian Monastery. http://www.the-george-hotel.activehotels.com/HOT Okehampton, Devon – 15th century thatched coaching inn was used as a monastery when it was built and this theme has been carried on The only monasteries I could find which do tourist orientated accommodation are: http://www.caldey-island.co.uk/ Tenby, South Wales – Self catering cottage. May be available in low season for short breaks of less than a week. Monks first came to Caldey in the 6th Century. In the 12th Century Benedictines from St Dogmaels, Pembrokeshire, set up a priory on the island. They remained until the Dissolution in 1536. Much of their medieval priory is still standing. In 1906 pioneering Anglican Benedictines purchased Caldey and built the present Italianate style abbey which now towers above the village. They were received into the Roman Catholic Church in 1913. Their stay was relatively short, financial difficulties forcing them to sell in 1925. The present monks of Caldey Abbey are Cistercians, a stricter, contemplative offshoot of the Benedictine Order. They came from Scourmont Abbey in Belgium in 1929, re-establishing the strong Cistercian tradition in Wales. http://ewell-monastery.co.uk/ Kent, South-East England – Accommodates guests but does not state whether or not men only. For general tourist information on the Lulworth / Doreset area see http://www.visiteastdorset.com/ http://www.dorset-cc.gov.uk/ click on ‘Tourism & Events’ then click on ‘Enter’ Owain

Response:

Thanks for the useful post. A truly cool book: The World Is Already Yours Conscious living in the real world www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc…)

Response:

No shit, Sherlock, Priest at abbey faces sex charges       Thu Dec 19, 7:36 AM ET By David O’Reilly, Kathleen Brady Shea and Chris Gray, Inquirer Staff Writers A Roman Catholic priest turned himself in to authorities in Chester County on charges of indecent assault yesterday, the second day in a row that the church has had to respond to allegations of priest misconduct. The Rev. David T. Lawlor, 59, is a member of the Norbertine community of priests and brothers who is assigned to the Daylesford Abbey in Devon. He was charged in connection with incidents involving two men. He was arraigned before District Justice John F. Anthony and released on $5,000 unsecured bail. Full story at Philadelphia Daily News and Inquirer The story, steinbrenner, was that the Father went to the local YMCA and inserted himself in the hot tubs, and "fondled" two folks who didn’t want to have their privates fondled. and your point was? — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> December 19, 2002 03:16 > Youth Counselor Sues Celebrity Cruises > By Ina Paiva Cordle, The Miami Herald > Dec. 19–A female youth counselor on the cruise ship Millennium filed > suit against Celebrity Cruises Wednesday, alleging she was sexually > assaulted and battered by two male crew members, and that the company > failed to provide her with medical treatment and counseling or preserve > evidence from the crime scene. > The lawsuit, filed in Miami-Dade County Circuit Court, also alleges > that Celebrity failed to perform adequate background checks on > employees and was negligent by ignoring prior complaints of sexual > harassment and assaults aboard its vessels. > On Nov. 2, the Bahamian Police arrested the two crew members — a > plumber and an air conditioning technician — on charges of rape. They > have since posted bail and surrendered their passports, and are > awaiting trial. > "We have a strong zero tolerance policy regarding any alleged crime on > board our ships," said Michael Sheehan, spokesman for Miami-based > Celebrity, which is owned by Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. "The > allegations were immediately reported to the FBI, and the Bahamian > authorities, which are investigating." > The suit seeks compensation for medical treatment and other damages, > plus punitive damages. > "Most importantly, we want some acknowledgment by the company that > their zero tolerance program is not a zero tolerance program designed > to prevent crime. It’s a zero tolerance program designed to protect > them legally from reports of crime," said James M. Walker, a Miami > maritime attorney who represents the female employee. > According to the suit, Delatalas Theologos, 20, and Nikolaos > Neamonitis, 27, abducted and repeatedly raped "Jane Doe" in the early > morning hours of Nov. 1, following a crew Halloween party. She > apparently had been drugged by the alleged assailants, and was rendered > unconscious or semi-conscious during the assault, Walker said. > Hired by Celebrity in June, "Doe," 26, had been assigned to the > Millennium just nine days earlier, to care for the children of > passengers. "Doe" is now living outside the United States at her > parents’ home, and declined to be interviewed, her attorney said. > The suit says that when "Doe" became conscious, she observed Theologos > and Neamonitis videotaping her. She tried to obtain the tape and escape > from the cabin, but was assaulted and battered by the men, the suit > alleges. > "Doe" reported the rape to the cruise line. But instead of providing > medical attention, performing a forensic rape analysis or preserving > the scene of the crime, Celebrity subjected her to multiple > interrogations by the male Celebrity officers on the ship, the suit > alleges. > On Nov. 2, a Celebrity defense lawyer boarded the ship in Nassau. > Saying he was acting in a neutral role, he interrogated "Doe" before > she was finally allowed to report to the infirmary, the suit alleges. > She was allegedly told not to mention the two crew members by name or > inform the doctor that she had been sexually assaulted and battered. > The doctor refused to treat "Doe," the suit says. > She departed the ship and received medical treatment in the Bahamas, > and was flown to Miami by the cruise line on Nov. 3, and provided with > a hotel room, Walker said. At her insistence, the cruise line referred > her to South Miami Hospital, he said. > Walker said it is unknown whether "Doe" is still employed by Celebrity. > Sheehan declined to comment on the employment status of the three crew > members. > In a separate case against Celebrity, alleging sexual assault of a > female passenger by a male crew member onboard the Zenith on July 20, > 1999, a federal jury last month awarded the passenger $1 million. The > cruise line is asking the judge to set aside the award, and an appeal > is also possible, Sheehan said. > —– > To see more of The Miami Herald, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go > to http://www.herald.com.

Response:

>> Priest at abbey faces sex charges >       Thu Dec 19, 7:36 AM ET > By David O’Reilly, Kathleen Brady Shea and Chris Gray, Inquirer Staff > Writers > A Roman Catholic priest turned himself in to authorities in Chester County > on charges of indecent assault yesterday, the second day in a row that the > church has had to respond to allegations of priest misconduct. > and your point was? > — > DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

Dick, It didn’t mention the priest worked on a cuise ship. And your point was? Jeff

Response:

No shit, Sherlock, Priest at abbey faces sex charges       Thu Dec 19, 7:36 AM ET By David O’Reilly, Kathleen Brady Shea and Chris Gray, Inquirer Staff Writers A Roman Catholic priest turned himself in to authorities in Chester County on charges of indecent assault yesterday, the second day in a row that the church has had to respond to allegations of priest misconduct. The Rev. David T. Lawlor, 59, is a member of the Norbertine community of priests and brothers who is assigned to the Daylesford Abbey in Devon. He was charged in connection with incidents involving two men. He was arraigned before District Justice John F. Anthony and released on $5,000 unsecured bail. Full story at Philadelphia Daily News and Inquirer The story, steinbrenner, was that the Father went to the local YMCA and inserted himself in the hot tubs, and "fondled" two folks who didn’t want to have their privates fondled. and your point was? — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> December 19, 2002 03:16 > Youth Counselor Sues Celebrity Cruises > By Ina Paiva Cordle, The Miami Herald > Dec. 19–A female youth counselor on the cruise ship Millennium filed > suit against Celebrity Cruises Wednesday, alleging she was sexually > assaulted and battered by two male crew members, and that the company > failed to provide her with medical treatment and counseling or preserve > evidence from the crime scene. > The lawsuit, filed in Miami-Dade County Circuit Court, also alleges > that Celebrity failed to perform adequate background checks on > employees and was negligent by ignoring prior complaints of sexual > harassment and assaults aboard its vessels. > On Nov. 2, the Bahamian Police arrested the two crew members — a > plumber and an air conditioning technician — on charges of rape. They > have since posted bail and surrendered their passports, and are > awaiting trial. > "We have a strong zero tolerance policy regarding any alleged crime on > board our ships," said Michael Sheehan, spokesman for Miami-based > Celebrity, which is owned by Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. "The > allegations were immediately reported to the FBI, and the Bahamian > authorities, which are investigating." > The suit seeks compensation for medical treatment and other damages, > plus punitive damages. > "Most importantly, we want some acknowledgment by the company that > their zero tolerance program is not a zero tolerance program designed > to prevent crime. It’s a zero tolerance program designed to protect > them legally from reports of crime," said James M. Walker, a Miami > maritime attorney who represents the female employee. > According to the suit, Delatalas Theologos, 20, and Nikolaos > Neamonitis, 27, abducted and repeatedly raped "Jane Doe" in the early > morning hours of Nov. 1, following a crew Halloween party. She > apparently had been drugged by the alleged assailants, and was rendered > unconscious or semi-conscious during the assault, Walker said. > Hired by Celebrity in June, "Doe," 26, had been assigned to the > Millennium just nine days earlier, to care for the children of > passengers. "Doe" is now living outside the United States at her > parents’ home, and declined to be interviewed, her attorney said. > The suit says that when "Doe" became conscious, she observed Theologos > and Neamonitis videotaping her. She tried to obtain the tape and escape > from the cabin, but was assaulted and battered by the men, the suit > alleges. > "Doe" reported the rape to the cruise line. But instead of providing > medical attention, performing a forensic rape analysis or preserving > the scene of the crime, Celebrity subjected her to multiple > interrogations by the male Celebrity officers on the ship, the suit > alleges. > On Nov. 2, a Celebrity defense lawyer boarded the ship in Nassau. > Saying he was acting in a neutral role, he interrogated "Doe" before > she was finally allowed to report to the infirmary, the suit alleges. > She was allegedly told not to mention the two crew members by name or > inform the doctor that she had been sexually assaulted and battered. > The doctor refused to treat "Doe," the suit says. > She departed the ship and received medical treatment in the Bahamas, > and was flown to Miami by the cruise line on Nov. 3, and provided with > a hotel room, Walker said. At her insistence, the cruise line referred > her to South Miami Hospital, he said. > Walker said it is unknown whether "Doe" is still employed by Celebrity. > Sheehan declined to comment on the employment status of the three crew > members. > In a separate case against Celebrity, alleging sexual assault of a > female passenger by a male crew member onboard the Zenith on July 20, > 1999, a federal jury last month awarded the passenger $1 million. The > cruise line is asking the judge to set aside the award, and an appeal > is also possible, Sheehan said. > —– > To see more of The Miami Herald, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go > to http://www.herald.com.

Response:

>> Priest at abbey faces sex charges >       Thu Dec 19, 7:36 AM ET > By David O’Reilly, Kathleen Brady Shea and Chris Gray, Inquirer Staff > Writers > A Roman Catholic priest turned himself in to authorities in Chester County > on charges of indecent assault yesterday, the second day in a row that the > church has had to respond to allegations of priest misconduct. > and your point was? > — > DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

Dick, It didn’t mention the priest worked on a cuise ship. And your point was? Jeff

Response:

http://www.realchange.org/dornan.htm

Response:

>http://www.realchange.org/dornan.htm

What a character. You won’t find guys like this grown in some candidate clone factory. Let’s edit the Dornan story down a little: Staunch Roman Catholic Decades of military service. Civil rights activist, Marched with MLK. Represented an ethnically diverse district in congress, well. Damn, what a guy. Got any Democrats with that good a resume? Ron

Response:

>Let’s edit the Dornan story down a little: >Staunch Roman Catholic

Since when is it RC policy to beat your wife of pass bad checks? >Decades of military service.

Crashing planes. Some service. >Damn, what a guy.

He’s a lunatic.

Response:

Ok…had enough Halloween stuff from you Yanks. We don’t celebrate Halloween here, but most kids see enough American TV to figure out its a good way of getting lollies, so it’s gradually starting up. However, 5th November is the fun night for the British Empire – Guy Fawkes, or Fireworks night. Get together and set off fireworks, usually in small enclosed areas to do maximum damage (like the back of my house), have a few beers and a BBQ, and for the truly serious, burn a "guy" on a bonfire. The guy in question of course is just a rag or straw stuffed dummy in clothes. So…why? Well, here is a wee bit of info for you…as someone just said to me, yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential terrorist Fawkes, Guy (1570-1606), English conspirator, born in York. A Protestant by birth, he became a Roman Catholic after the marriage of his widowed mother to a man of Catholic background and sympathies. In 1593 he enlisted in the Spanish army in Flanders and in 1596 participated in the capture of the city of Calais by the Spanish in their war with Henry IV of France. He became implicated with Thomas Winter and others in the Gunpowder Plot to blow up Parliament as a protest against the anti-Roman Catholic laws. On the night of November 4-5, 1605, he was caught in a cellar underneath the House of Lords and arrested. After severe torture he disclosed the names of his accomplices, and with them he was hanged. Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated on November 5 in the United Kingdom and some other parts of the British Commonwealth with bonfires and fireworks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Ok…had enough Halloween stuff from you Yanks. We don’t celebrate Halloween >here, but most kids see enough American TV to figure out its a good way of >getting lollies, so it’s gradually starting up. >However, 5th November is the fun night for the British Empire – Guy Fawkes, >or Fireworks night. Get together and set off fireworks, usually in small >enclosed areas to do maximum damage (like the back of my house), have a few >beers and a BBQ, and for the truly serious, burn a "guy" on a bonfire. The >guy in question of course is just a rag or straw stuffed dummy in clothes. >So…why? Well, here is a wee bit of info for you…as someone just said to >me, yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential >terrorist >Fawkes, Guy (1570-1606), English conspirator, born in York. A Protestant by >birth, he became a Roman Catholic after the marriage of his widowed mother >to a man of Catholic background and sympathies. In 1593 he enlisted in the >Spanish army in Flanders and in 1596 participated in the capture of the city >of Calais by the Spanish in their war with Henry IV of France. He became >implicated with Thomas Winter and others in the Gunpowder Plot to blow up >Parliament as a protest against the anti-Roman Catholic laws. On the night >of November 4-5, 1605, he was caught in a cellar underneath the House of >Lords and arrested. After severe torture he disclosed the names of his >accomplices, and with them he was hanged. Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated on >November 5 in the United Kingdom and some other parts of the British >Commonwealth with bonfires and fireworks.

When I was a kid, in the North of England, the 4th of November was always "Mischief Night". This was the night kids basically terrorised the nieghbourhood for the evening – esp. the old folk. This charming tradition of inducing heart-failure in the retired population seems to have largely died out in favour of "trick or treat". This, to us, is a deeply offensive American tradition on Haloween. Hmmmm! I guess this is the power of tv. We still have our 5th November celebrations (This is actually a bit like the New Yorkers annually celebrating the capture of Osama Bin Laden – except you haven’t caught him yet) but it is rapidly being overtaken in popularity by Haloween. I can’t help thinking a bit of our identity is going with it. It is nice, however, to here our colonial friends in NZ still hold Guy Fawkes night close to their hearts. Keep the cats indoors and enjoy the fireworks. Steve (who is patchless)

Response:

"Paula" wrote >….yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential > terrorist…

Gosh; this is rather like our Benedict Arnold Day celebration, where children in colorful colonial costumes make a circle around passing strangers and force them to recite the Preamble to the Constitution and explain what each of the Constitutional Amendments means. Miss an answer and the kids set you on fire! It’s all very festive…

Response:

> "Paula" wrote >….yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a >potential > terrorist… > Gosh; this is rather like our Benedict Arnold Day celebration, where > children in colorful colonial costumes make a circle around passing > strangers and force them to recite the Preamble to the Constitution and > explain what each of the Constitutional Amendments means. Miss an answer > and the kids set you on fire! It’s all very festive…

LOL, reminds me of the Alferd Packer Days celebration here, celebrating the famed canibal — mc I haven’t lost my mind, It is backed up on disk somewhere. http://mcgonzalez.home.att.net

Response:

> "Paula" wrote >….yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential > terrorist… > Gosh; this is rather like our Benedict Arnold Day celebration, where > children in colorful colonial costumes make a circle around passing > strangers and force them to recite the Preamble to the Constitution and > explain what each of the Constitutional Amendments means. Miss an answer and > the kids set you on fire! It’s all very festive…

OMG – can’t breathe laughing so hard…. I wondered about this also.

Response:

Where I grew up, the night before Halloween was "Mat Night".  You go to all the neighbours houses and toss their door  mat out into the street, up a tree, etc.  I always remember it being my job to bring in the front door mat after dinner! Willene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I was a kid, in the North of England, the 4th of November was > always "Mischief Night". This was the night kids basically terrorised > the nieghbourhood for the evening – esp. the old folk.

Response:

Ok…had enough Halloween stuff from you Yanks. We don’t celebrate Halloween here, but most kids see enough American TV to figure out its a good way of getting lollies, so it’s gradually starting up. However, 5th November is the fun night for the British Empire – Guy Fawkes, or Fireworks night. Get together and set off fireworks, usually in small enclosed areas to do maximum damage (like the back of my house), have a few beers and a BBQ, and for the truly serious, burn a "guy" on a bonfire. The guy in question of course is just a rag or straw stuffed dummy in clothes. So…why? Well, here is a wee bit of info for you…as someone just said to me, yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential terrorist Fawkes, Guy (1570-1606), English conspirator, born in York. A Protestant by birth, he became a Roman Catholic after the marriage of his widowed mother to a man of Catholic background and sympathies. In 1593 he enlisted in the Spanish army in Flanders and in 1596 participated in the capture of the city of Calais by the Spanish in their war with Henry IV of France. He became implicated with Thomas Winter and others in the Gunpowder Plot to blow up Parliament as a protest against the anti-Roman Catholic laws. On the night of November 4-5, 1605, he was caught in a cellar underneath the House of Lords and arrested. After severe torture he disclosed the names of his accomplices, and with them he was hanged. Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated on November 5 in the United Kingdom and some other parts of the British Commonwealth with bonfires and fireworks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Ok…had enough Halloween stuff from you Yanks. We don’t celebrate Halloween >here, but most kids see enough American TV to figure out its a good way of >getting lollies, so it’s gradually starting up. >However, 5th November is the fun night for the British Empire – Guy Fawkes, >or Fireworks night. Get together and set off fireworks, usually in small >enclosed areas to do maximum damage (like the back of my house), have a few >beers and a BBQ, and for the truly serious, burn a "guy" on a bonfire. The >guy in question of course is just a rag or straw stuffed dummy in clothes. >So…why? Well, here is a wee bit of info for you…as someone just said to >me, yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential >terrorist >Fawkes, Guy (1570-1606), English conspirator, born in York. A Protestant by >birth, he became a Roman Catholic after the marriage of his widowed mother >to a man of Catholic background and sympathies. In 1593 he enlisted in the >Spanish army in Flanders and in 1596 participated in the capture of the city >of Calais by the Spanish in their war with Henry IV of France. He became >implicated with Thomas Winter and others in the Gunpowder Plot to blow up >Parliament as a protest against the anti-Roman Catholic laws. On the night >of November 4-5, 1605, he was caught in a cellar underneath the House of >Lords and arrested. After severe torture he disclosed the names of his >accomplices, and with them he was hanged. Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated on >November 5 in the United Kingdom and some other parts of the British >Commonwealth with bonfires and fireworks.

When I was a kid, in the North of England, the 4th of November was always "Mischief Night". This was the night kids basically terrorised the nieghbourhood for the evening – esp. the old folk. This charming tradition of inducing heart-failure in the retired population seems to have largely died out in favour of "trick or treat". This, to us, is a deeply offensive American tradition on Haloween. Hmmmm! I guess this is the power of tv. We still have our 5th November celebrations (This is actually a bit like the New Yorkers annually celebrating the capture of Osama Bin Laden – except you haven’t caught him yet) but it is rapidly being overtaken in popularity by Haloween. I can’t help thinking a bit of our identity is going with it. It is nice, however, to here our colonial friends in NZ still hold Guy Fawkes night close to their hearts. Keep the cats indoors and enjoy the fireworks. Steve (who is patchless)

Response:

"Paula" wrote >….yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential > terrorist…

Gosh; this is rather like our Benedict Arnold Day celebration, where children in colorful colonial costumes make a circle around passing strangers and force them to recite the Preamble to the Constitution and explain what each of the Constitutional Amendments means. Miss an answer and the kids set you on fire! It’s all very festive…

Response:

> "Paula" wrote >….yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a >potential > terrorist… > Gosh; this is rather like our Benedict Arnold Day celebration, where > children in colorful colonial costumes make a circle around passing > strangers and force them to recite the Preamble to the Constitution and > explain what each of the Constitutional Amendments means. Miss an answer > and the kids set you on fire! It’s all very festive…

LOL, reminds me of the Alferd Packer Days celebration here, celebrating the famed canibal — mc I haven’t lost my mind, It is backed up on disk somewhere. http://mcgonzalez.home.att.net

Response:

> "Paula" wrote >….yes, us British Empire subjects do celebrate a snitch and a potential > terrorist… > Gosh; this is rather like our Benedict Arnold Day celebration, where > children in colorful colonial costumes make a circle around passing > strangers and force them to recite the Preamble to the Constitution and > explain what each of the Constitutional Amendments means. Miss an answer and > the kids set you on fire! It’s all very festive…

OMG – can’t breathe laughing so hard…. I wondered about this also.

Response:

Where I grew up, the night before Halloween was "Mat Night".  You go to all the neighbours houses and toss their door  mat out into the street, up a tree, etc.  I always remember it being my job to bring in the front door mat after dinner! Willene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I was a kid, in the North of England, the 4th of November was > always "Mischief Night". This was the night kids basically terrorised > the nieghbourhood for the evening – esp. the old folk.

Response: