Question:
WAIT A MINUTE!!!! You plead NOT GUILTY… and did NOT get a trial…was sentenced… and paid a fine…. Something is WAY wrong….. You should have gotten a trial. Even if it was a phony trial…. you should have gotten one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is an update to my post: > I went to the court on the day and was really thrilled/ticked to see > the cop there. Acc. to the list posted outside, he had about 30-40 > "victims" under his name. Of course he is going to show up to earn his > and his buddies pays. > The judge called my name, so Mr. .., rolling stop, plead guilty or not > guilty. I said "not guilty" and then uttered a sentence "and my record > is clean"… he said $50.00 and court supervision. I wanted to resist > this $50 but didn’t want to pick an argument with his highness. It took > about 5-10 sec for the system to get $50 of my hard earned money. The > cop was sitting and smiling on his accomplishments. He wasted two hours > of my time (not counting countless moments thinking about this ordeal) > but at least I could say I pleaded "not guilty" and saved about $25-$50 > in the fine and four hour of mental torture (aka driving school). > While in the line waiting to pay, I started talking to others. They all > were ticketed by the same cop, on the same stop sign around the same > time (~9AM) on different days. What a coincedence or should I call it > what a racket! This is easy money for the system. > Things like these really make you wonder about the fairness of this > system. I had a high respect for these cops trying to their job but > have lost some since this episode. > Thanks for reading this… Hopefully nonone comes after me from the > system for denigrating the system;-) > Bye for now. > > I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was > failing > > to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an > interesection > > (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the > > oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain > myself. > > I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when > they > > called out my name). > > It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps > > unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in > court > > awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my > area) > > during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as > you show > > up. > I never really thought of court quite like this… but it does make > sense after > I think about it. You sit around in a room filled to over capacity > with people > that haven’t bathed in weeks (or even seen water in weeks), that have > shoes with > no soles, that are missing two teeth, have ratted hair…. yep… > that’s got to > be it. That’s the idea behind "mail-in" tickets. If you can afford it, > you mail > it in. If not, it’s not worth the State’s bother to try to force > collection. > What a racket. > — > Michael A. Stone Jr. > The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets > http://home.att.net/~speeding > Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". > – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet > "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in > accidents than relatively high speed drivers." > – Cirillo (1968) > (from http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) > Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a > long-term > positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. > – The Highway Safety Deskbook > (from > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 ) > Before you buy.
– Michael A. Stone Jr. The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets http://home.att.net/~speeding Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in accidents than relatively high speed drivers." – Cirillo (1968) (from http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a long-term positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. – The Highway Safety Deskbook (from http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 )
Response:
[snip] >That is both fascinating and horrifying!! >Anybody on this NG from California?
Yes. California LEOs have been coming down hard on rolling stops (the old "California stop") for a few years now, and it will cost a lot more than the $50 the original poster got dinged for. >I’d sure like to know if that is the case here. >Haven’t had any tickets in ages, but you never know! >Where I live, you’re pretty well dead if you get a ticket. The >correspondence all goes to a money-extraction machine in another >community. It IS possible to set up a court date after a lot of bck >and forth; have never followed it through, since I don’t get tickets >(knock on wood), but wonder if one does have a chance.
That’s about right, the commissioner is trying to dispose of cases as fast as possible, and LEOs get overtime for court appearances, so the old dodge of hoping the officer doesn’t show up is a longshot at best. There have been some successful challenges to red light violations captured on camera, usually based on the photo not being clear enough to identify the driver (or identifying someone else as the driver) or timing problems involving the equipment. Check out the Orange County Register morgue for stories on the red light cameras in San Juan Capistrano for specifics. >Moving violations used to be infractions (IIRC) but now have been >moved to a different level — sorry, don’t remember the details — >which makes it much harder to fight them and/or get traffic school.
No, they’re still infractions in California, but the traffic school option isn’t that attractive anymore — you have to request adjudication to traffic school and pay a fee that’s $24 more than the fine would have been. DMV and AAA now contend that traffic school doesn’t do any good (doesn’t reduce repeat violation rates), so look for a move to repeal it altogether some distance down the road. >Your input solicited. >– >Polar
Not a lawyer, but willing to split hairs anytime. — Chris Green
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->is clean"… he said $50.00 and court supervision. I wanted to resist >this $50 but didn’t want to pick an argument with his highness. It took >about 5-10 sec for the system to get $50 of my hard earned money. The >In at least some jurisdictions, part of the money collected in fines >and court costs from guilty parties goes to the judge’s and the cop’s >retirement funds. Both general retirement funds and individual funds >for the specific public "servant" doing the deed may be involved. >Seems like a pretty clear conflict of interest, since under such >circumstances it is in the cop’s and judge’s financial interest to >convict. (I have a friend who is currently researching this issue >in conjunction with fighting a traffic ticket he received recently.) >In order to understand how anything really works, you have to >follow the money trail…
That is both fascinating and horrifying!! Anybody on this NG from California? I’d sure like to know if that is the case here. Haven’t had any tickets in ages, but you never know! Where I live, you’re pretty well dead if you get a ticket. The correspondence all goes to a money-extraction machine in another community. It IS possible to set up a court date after a lot of bck and forth; have never followed it through, since I don’t get tickets (knock on wood), but wonder if one does have a chance. Moving violations used to be infractions (IIRC) but now have been moved to a different level — sorry, don’t remember the details — which makes it much harder to fight them and/or get traffic school. Your input solicited. — Polar
Response:
> I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was failing > to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an interesection > (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the > oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain myself. > I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when they > called out my name). > It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps > unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in court > awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my area) > during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as you show > up.
I never really thought of court quite like this… but it does make sense after I think about it. You sit around in a room filled to over capacity with people that haven’t bathed in weeks (or even seen water in weeks), that have shoes with no soles, that are missing two teeth, have ratted hair…. yep… that’s got to be it. That’s the idea behind "mail-in" tickets. If you can afford it, you mail it in. If not, it’s not worth the State’s bother to try to force collection. What a racket. — Michael A. Stone Jr. The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets http://home.att.net/~speeding Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in accidents than relatively high speed drivers." – Cirillo (1968) (from http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a long-term positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. – The Highway Safety Deskbook (from http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 )
Response:
Here is an update to my post: I went to the court on the day and was really thrilled/ticked to see the cop there. Acc. to the list posted outside, he had about 30-40 "victims" under his name. Of course he is going to show up to earn his and his buddies pays. The judge called my name, so Mr. .., rolling stop, plead guilty or not guilty. I said "not guilty" and then uttered a sentence "and my record is clean"… he said $50.00 and court supervision. I wanted to resist this $50 but didn’t want to pick an argument with his highness. It took about 5-10 sec for the system to get $50 of my hard earned money. The cop was sitting and smiling on his accomplishments. He wasted two hours of my time (not counting countless moments thinking about this ordeal) but at least I could say I pleaded "not guilty" and saved about $25-$50 in the fine and four hour of mental torture (aka driving school). While in the line waiting to pay, I started talking to others. They all were ticketed by the same cop, on the same stop sign around the same time (~9AM) on different days. What a coincedence or should I call it what a racket! This is easy money for the system. Things like these really make you wonder about the fairness of this system. I had a high respect for these cops trying to their job but have lost some since this episode. Thanks for reading this… Hopefully nonone comes after me from the system for denigrating the system;-) Bye for now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was failing > to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an interesection > (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the > oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain myself. > I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when they > called out my name). > It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps > unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in court > awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my area) > during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as you show > up. > I never really thought of court quite like this… but it does make sense after > I think about it. You sit around in a room filled to over capacity with people > that haven’t bathed in weeks (or even seen water in weeks), that have shoes with > no soles, that are missing two teeth, have ratted hair…. yep… that’s got to > be it. That’s the idea behind "mail-in" tickets. If you can afford it, you mail > it in. If not, it’s not worth the State’s bother to try to force collection. > What a racket. > — > Michael A. Stone Jr. > The Definitive Guide to Speeding Tickets > http://home.att.net/~speeding > Only 4% of all fatal collisions are "speed related". > – NHTSA 1998 Fact Sheet > "low speed drivers are more likely to be involved in > accidents than relatively high speed drivers." > – Cirillo (1968) > (from http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm ) > Various studies seeking to prove that the 55 mph limit has had a long-term > positive effect on highway safety have come up with mixed results. > – The Highway Safety Deskbook > (from
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html#PART6 ) Before you buy.
Response:
I went twice to court to argue tickets. One ticket of the cases was failing to yield to oncoming traffic when making a left turn at an interesection (actually, I cut off the the police who were on 2 motorcycles in the oncoming lane!). I went to court with excuses and diagram to explain myself. I didn’t have to say a word (actually just one word: ‘present’ when they called out my name). It seems to me that they figure that you are pretty poor (perhaps unemployed) person if you can afford to take 2 to 3 hours to sit in court awaitinf your turn (there is no scheduled time in the court in my area) during working hours, and so they let you off the hook as long as you show up.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Greetings. > About three weeks ago, I got the ticket (first one in my 12-13 years > driving history) for what the cop claimed "rolling stop" and he put on > the ticket "failed to stop at the stop sign and yield to pedestrian". > I am very conservative driver and never speed over 5 miles the limit, > picky about the stop sign stoppage. I told the cop but he said, "don’t > worry it is a minor infraction, you can come to the court and would let > you go under court supervision." > Unfortunately, I don’t even recall what happened at the stop sign as I > was talking to a colleague in the van. He stopped me about three lights > later. > My destiny with the court is next week… Any pointers what to expect? > What to tell the judge if he asked me what happened? > Pl advise. > AK > Always to go to court for a ticket. In some states you can get a Prayer > for Judgement, kinda like you plead guilty but it doesnt count on your > record. Or in other states, you could go to traffic school and get the > charge wiped out after completion. I got a speeding ticket in Virginia > and took the safety class in my home state and mailed in the paper > work. Bing bang boom…not on my record. > — > Christine
Response:
One "hope" is to go for a hearing, and hope the State Trooper is too busy to show up. If that happens, you win by default. It all depends where on the priority list that day, the Trooper puts a traffic ticket against, hopefully, "bigger fish to fry" (a drug bust, bank robbery, etc). BTW, I would not talk with the Trooper. If you piss him off, he make sure, he is at the hearing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance.
Response:
If I were you, I would lie like a rug. Make up the best lie you can think of and go with it. If you don’t lie, you will be found guilty – no matter your previous driving record. I had the same experience as you – the officer went to court and lied about the whole incident. If you had a witness who said you stopped completely, that would help your case. Look to see if perhaps trees were covering the stop sign or if it was obstructed by some other obstacle, take photos and say you didn’t see the sign – you just slowed down in order to be safe at the intersection. Either way, it can’t hurt to go to court and try. Good Luck. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Greetings. > About three weeks ago, I got the ticket (first one in my 12-13 years > driving history) for what the cop claimed "rolling stop" and he put on > the ticket "failed to stop at the stop sign and yield to pedestrian". > I am very conservative driver and never speed over 5 miles the limit, > picky about the stop sign stoppage. I told the cop but he said, "don’t > worry it is a minor infraction, you can come to the court and would let > you go under court supervision." > Unfortunately, I don’t even recall what happened at the stop sign as I > was talking to a colleague in the van. He stopped me about three lights > later. > My destiny with the court is next week… Any pointers what to expect? > What to tell the judge if he asked me what happened? > Pl advise. > AK > Before you buy.
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Seems to me that the smartest thing to do on this one would be to talk to your lawyer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]
Response:
Greetings. About three weeks ago, I got the ticket (first one in my 12-13 years driving history) for what the cop claimed "rolling stop" and he put on the ticket "failed to stop at the stop sign and yield to pedestrian". I am very conservative driver and never speed over 5 miles the limit, picky about the stop sign stoppage. I told the cop but he said, "don’t worry it is a minor infraction, you can come to the court and would let you go under court supervision." Unfortunately, I don’t even recall what happened at the stop sign as I was talking to a colleague in the van. He stopped me about three lights later. My destiny with the court is next week… Any pointers what to expect? What to tell the judge if he asked me what happened? Pl advise. AK Before you buy.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance.
Without knowing where this ticket was issued, its hard to answer your question. Check with your state’s DMV. In some states, running a stop sign might not result in any points being added to your driving record. On the other hand, if you did run the stop sign, you should consider yourself lucky that the worst thing that happened was that ticket. I have seen people run the stop sign at the corner of the street where I used to live who paid for that mistake with a trip by ambulance to the nearest hospital.
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You don’t say where you are but rules vary in different counties in CA. Some let you go to traffic school if no tickets within the last 3 years (provided you pay fine, court fees and traffic school fees). Others don’t allow traffic school so you’ll get a point unless you can convince the judge to dismiss or rule "Not Guilty." Oh yeah, very hard to lose by default here since cops get OT pay for appearing in court with you. Yip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]
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2 years ago I was followed 6 miles to my house on a country road by a state trooper. When I pulled in my driveway, he turned on his lights & siren and told me that I ran a stop sign on my way home. I always stop at that particular sign and I knew he was behind me all the way. I took it to court and the DA would not bargain – the judge did not reduce the ticket at all and thew the book at me – I have never had a ticket for anything in the last 12 years. Needless to say, I wasn’t surprised at the way the system worked – at least I wasted the officers time and the taxpayers money by taking it to court. Now I run that stop sign every day – just to get my monies worth! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]
Response:
[Posting from friends account...do not reply] Greetings, I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for running through a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor infraction (‘failure to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my insurance go up for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I go about handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I say to the judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me running the sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so on...I'm already aware of that]
Response:
That sounds familiar, I got a ticket once for making an illegal U-turn. Well I was turning left in to a parking lot less than 500 feet from an intersection. Illegal, technically, but everyone does that including cops. Well as I was applying the brakes getting ready to make the left I got rear-ended (in WA state). Now we all know the person who rear-ends you is at fault in this state. I hadn’t even crossed the yellow line yet when this happened. I got ticketed for making an illegal U-turn and causing the accident!!??? I went to court with the RCW’s, a Seattle cop, and a witness to contest the ticket. All of these people and the law were on my side. The judge just said "so what" and I was stuck with the ticket, I would have appealed but it would have cost me more to do that then pay the fine. Business decision on my part. As a side note the ticket also said I caused the accident by having a little check box filled, I called the WSP to confirm this and they said yes, that means you were the cause of the accident. When I asked the Judge if the ticket said I caused the accident he said no. I don’t think he knew how to do his job, he was also, just like most police in Edmonds discriminatory against age. If you are 25 and under you don’t have any rights in this town. The guy who rear ended me was married and 35, so the cop already had an attitude against me. The guy who rear ended me also "set up" a witness, after he rear ended me we both pulled over, he used a pay phone and 10 minutes later a "witness" who saw the accident decided to turn around and come back. Funny I never remembered, a white hatchback any where near the accident scene. The guy also claimed an injury to his hand, the impact was only a nudge with minimal damage between us so that was B.S. as well. I imagine if I had the money I could have investigated it and got him on insurance fraud. Travis (Still frustrated and pissed over that one 7 years later)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2 years ago I was followed 6 miles to my house on a country road by a state > trooper. When I pulled in my driveway, he turned on his lights & siren and told > me that I ran a stop sign on my way home. I always stop at that particular sign > and I knew he was behind me all the way. I took it to court and the DA would not > bargain – the judge did not reduce the ticket at all and thew the book at me – I > have never had a ticket for anything in the last 12 years. Needless to say, I > wasn’t surprised at the way the system worked – at least I wasted the officers > time and the taxpayers money by taking it to court. > Now I run that stop sign every day – just to get my monies worth! > Mike > [Posting from friends account...do not reply] > Greetings, > I have a question for the experts. The state trooper pulled me over for > running through > a stop sign. I have a pretty clean 7-year driving record w/ one minor > infraction (‘failure > to obey traffic control device’) few years ago. I can’t afford to have my > insurance go up > for 3 years, but be glad to pay to fine w/out getting any points. How do I > go about > handling this? If I plead not guilty, and I get called in court, what can I > say to the > judge to defend myself, especially if the trooper says that he saw me > running the > sign? [[Can I plead not guilty, then on the court date, approach the > trooper/DA and plea bargain the case down? If yes, what should I say to the > trooper/DA.]] Thanks in advance. > [NOTE: Please no follow-ups about the ethics of pleading not guilty and so > on...I'm > already aware of that]
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