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Question:

Invasion by Invitation Frosty Wooldridge | March 30 2006 After the massive demonstrations in Las Angeles, Denver, Chicago and other cities last weekend, "Houston! We’ve got a problem, a big problem." Hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens marched in the streets of American demanding their ‘rights’. That’s like a band of bank robbers demanding not to be arrested and allowed to keep robbing more banks by bringing in their buddies to help them. What you’re seeing is a complete breakdown of the rule of law in America. What you’re witnessing is the colonization of America by another country. Further, you’re watching your own President Bush and Congress aid, abet and assist this assault on the United States. Did you notice hundreds of thousands of illegals waving the Mexican flag in America’s streets while trampling Old Glory? Instead of standing up for the U.S. Constitution, the Senate Judiciary Committee passed an amnesty program that facilitates this invasion by invitation. On KSTE 650 radio in Sacramento, California the hosts, Armstrong and Getty received a call from Julio an illegal alien, "My family came here before he was born. We Mexicans come here to take our land back. We were here first. We will use your system to vote you out. We come to fight. It is our land, not yours. We are taking it back." La Voz de Aztlan, March 27, 2006 wrote, "What does the immense success of "La Gran Marcha" mean to Mexicanos and other Latinos? It simply means that we now have the numbers, the political will and the organizational skills to direct our own destinies and not be subservient to the White and Jewish power structures. It means that we can now undertake bigger and more significant mass actions to achieve total political and economic liberation like that being proposed by Juan Jos

Question:

Wal-Mart announced that they will soon be offering customers a new discount item: Wal-Mart’s own brand of wine. The world’s largest retail chain is teaming up with E&J Gallo Winery of California to produce the spirits at an affordable price, in the $2-$5 range. Wine connoisseurs may not be inclined to throw a bottle of Wal-Mart brand into their shopping carts, but "there is a market for cheap wine", said Kathy Micken, VP of Marketing. She said, "But the right name is important." Customer surveys were conducted to determine the most attractive name for the Wal-Mart brand. The top surveyed names in order of popularity are: 10. Chateau Traileur Parc   9. White Trashfindel   8. Big Red Gulp   7. World Championship Riesling   6. NASCARbernet   5. Chef Boyardeaux   4. Peanut Noir   3. I Can’t Believe It’s Not Vinegar!   2. Grape Expectations And the Number One name for Wal-Mart wine: 1. Nasti Spumante The beauty of Wal-Mart wine is that it can be served with either white meat (Possum) or red meat (Squirrel)

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> Wal-Mart announced that they will soon be offering customers a new > discount item: Wal-Mart’s own brand of wine. The world’s largest retail > chain is teaming up with E&J Gallo Winery of California to produce the > spirits at an affordable price, in the $2-$5 range.

/snip/ <chuckle>  All kidding aside, there indeed is a market for reasonably tasting wine that is in the $2 range as per Trader Joe’s Charles Shaw line of wines – Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, and Chardonnay – aka "Two Buck Chuck".  Trader Joe’s here in California has been carrying this wine for several years, I believe.   And every visit there sees folks leaving with a case or two.  While not a great wine, it is a good solid house wine for day to day drinking….and inexpensive enough to be drunk day by day.  There even was one anecdote of this wine being served at a wedding back east.  And while I have no evidence, I like to think that the popularity of "Two Buck Chuck" helps keep down the price of other California wines such that reasonable wines can still be found in the $5 – $10 range at Trader Joe’s. http://www.traderjoes.com/new/chuckshaw.asp http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/200…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Wal-Mart announced that they will soon be offering customers a new > discount item: Wal-Mart’s own brand of wine. The world’s largest retail > chain is teaming up with E&J Gallo Winery of California to produce the > spirits at an affordable price, in the $2-$5 range. > Wine connoisseurs may not be inclined to throw a bottle of Wal-Mart > brand into their shopping carts, but "there is a market for cheap > wine", said Kathy Micken, VP of Marketing. She said, "But the right > name is important." > Customer surveys were conducted to determine the most attractive name > for the Wal-Mart brand. The top surveyed names in order of popularity > are: > 10. Chateau Traileur Parc >  9. White Trashfindel >  8. Big Red Gulp >  7. World Championship Riesling >  6. NASCARbernet >  5. Chef Boyardeaux >  4. Peanut Noir >  3. I Can’t Believe It’s Not Vinegar! >  2. Grape Expectations > And the Number One name for Wal-Mart wine: > 1. Nasti Spumante > The beauty of Wal-Mart wine is that it can be served with either white > meat (Possum) or red meat (Squirrel)

Love it!  Permission to post it in alt.society.labor.unions?  Giving credit of course.  Or you could post it there.

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> Sadly, two-buck chuck, is now $3 in many Trader Joe’s.  It continues to > be very popular, I understand.

So "two buck Chuck" is in some areas "three buck Chuck"… but the Trader Joe’s link I posted explained that the cost of this wine is higher in some areas because of distribution costs, taxes, etc.  Quote: "The price of Charles Shaw varies from $1.99 to $3.39, depending on location.  We’d love to offer Charles Shaw to our customers for $1.99 in all stores, but the transportation costs, taxes and various state distribution laws add substantial costs.  And if you’re a regular at Trader Joe’s, you know that we change our retails only when our costs change.  We always try to have honest, low everyday prices.  Other companies may have just line-priced the wine for $2.99 everywhere for simplicity.  We prefer the complexity, especially when it gives our customers the lowest price possible.  We think even at $3.39 in Ohio, it’s still an excellent deal." I just returned from a trip to Trader Joe’s here in the SF Bay Area and am pleased to see the wine still at $1.99 a bottle.

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> Where’s my favorite Mad Dog 20-20

Mad Dog is produced by a tribe of itinerant Jewish grape-squashing peasants who are too stubborn to sell out no matter what. It will forever be available as a kosher ritual fruit of the grape, untouched by the toes of Italian grape squeezers. (^+^))))))) George Z

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>> Where’s my favorite Mad Dog 20-20 >Mad Dog is produced by a tribe of itinerant Jewish grape-squashing peasants >who are too stubborn to sell out no matter what.

   Time to exercise "eminent domain" on them?  (I’m certainly not advocating doing that to them, just mentioning the new possibility.) >It will forever be available as a kosher ritual fruit of the grape, >untouched by the toes of Italian grape squeezers.

    I’m reminded of a Frazier episode where Niles and Frazier are pretending to be Jewish so as not to offend the mother of Frazier’s new girlfriend.  Frazier, in the kitchen, mentions to Niles that he doesn’t have any Jewish wine.  Niles adds a few spoonfuls of sugar to the wine and stirs it up, and gives some to Frazier to sample.  Frazier sips it and says "That’s disgusting!" and Niles says "perfect!".

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<<Permission to post it in alt.society.labor.unions?>> OK – however I did not write it. Someone emailed it to me. John Cowart

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Sadly, two-buck chuck, is now $3 in many Trader Joe’s.  It continues to be very popular, I understand.

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Where’s my favorite Mad Dog 20-20 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Wal-Mart announced that they will soon be offering customers a new > discount item: Wal-Mart’s own brand of wine. The world’s largest retail > chain is teaming up with E&J Gallo Winery of California to produce the > spirits at an affordable price, in the $2-$5 range. > Wine connoisseurs may not be inclined to throw a bottle of Wal-Mart > brand into their shopping carts, but "there is a market for cheap > wine", said Kathy Micken, VP of Marketing. She said, "But the right > name is important." > Customer surveys were conducted to determine the most attractive name > for the Wal-Mart brand. The top surveyed names in order of popularity > are: > 10. Chateau Traileur Parc >   9. White Trashfindel >   8. Big Red Gulp >   7. World Championship Riesling >   6. NASCARbernet >   5. Chef Boyardeaux >   4. Peanut Noir >   3. I Can’t Believe It’s Not Vinegar! >   2. Grape Expectations > And the Number One name for Wal-Mart wine: > 1. Nasti Spumante > The beauty of Wal-Mart wine is that it can be served with either white > meat (Possum) or red meat (Squirrel)

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Question:

Nowhere to run Brian Whitaker (The Guardian) There is a remarkable article in the latest issue of the American Jewish weekly, Forward. It calls for President Bush to be impeached and put on trial "for misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost them". To describe Iraq as the most foolish war of the last 2,014 years is a sweeping statement, but the writer is well qualified to know. He is Martin van Creveld, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and one of the world’s foremost military historians. Several of his books have influenced modern military theory and he is the only non-American author on the US Army’s list of required reading for officers. Professor van Creveld has previously drawn parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, and pointed out that almost all countries that have tried to fight similar wars during the last 60 years or so have ended up losing. Why President Bush "nevertheless decided to go to war escapes me and will no doubt preoccupy historians to come," he told one interviewer. The professor’s puzzlement is understandable. More than two years after the war began, and despite the huge financial and human cost, it is difficult to see any real benefits.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Nowhere to run >Brian Whitaker >(The Guardian) >There is a remarkable article in the latest issue of the American Jewish >weekly, Forward. It calls for President Bush to be impeached and put on >trial "for misleading the American people, and launching the most >foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany >and lost them". >To describe Iraq as the most foolish war of the last 2,014 years is a >sweeping statement, but the writer is well qualified to know. >He is Martin van Creveld, a professor at the Hebrew University in >Jerusalem and one of the world’s foremost military historians. Several >of his books have influenced modern military theory and he is the only >non-American author on the US Army’s list of required reading for >officers. >Professor van Creveld has previously drawn parallels between Iraq and >Vietnam, and pointed out that almost all countries that have tried to >fight similar wars during the last 60 years or so have ended up losing. >Why President Bush "nevertheless decided to go to war escapes me and >will no doubt preoccupy historians to come," he told one interviewer. >The professor’s puzzlement is understandable. More than two years after >the war began, and despite the huge financial and human cost, it is >difficult to see any real benefits.

The full piece is here, and yes, I will OT post it too: <http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1653454,00.html> The JDF article by the professor is here: <http://www.forward.com/articles/6936>        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

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Question:

This is how Neocons really talk about the blacks in back rooms while sipping wine and eating French cheese: Bill Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down. "That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said. Bennett served as Reagan’s chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities from 1981-1985 and secretary of education from 1985-1988. >From 1989-1990, he served as "drug czar" in the administration of the

elder Bush.

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> This is how Neocons really talk about > the blacks in back rooms while sipping wine and eating French cheese: > Bill Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former > presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his > syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, > you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every > black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.

WEll that’d take care of the small time crooks, now for big time crooks: we’ll have to start here http://www.clowncrack.com/cartoons/large/political/condombush.htm

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More racist garbage from the right, a review of an article by Charles Miller in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal: Penned by Charles Murray, he of The Bell Curve fame, it argues that what we’re seeing post-Katrina isn’t poverty but a once-again visible "underclass," a sort of shadow society of unsocialized black men with no appetite for work, no capacity to hold jobs, and no ability to be helped through conventional methods. They are, quite literally, savages, unable to function in the world the rest of us inhabit. They are, as he puts it, the "looters and the thugs," not to mention the "inert women doing nothing to help themselves or their children." . . . I’ve no idea where Murray got the idea that the New Orleans evacuees lacked jobs rather than cars and social skills rather than transportation — from deep within his own prejudices, I’d guess. And where he got the concept that these men and women are somehow incapable of holding jobs and unwilling to send their children to school — that’s all similarly obscure. The absence of autos affects the social and the unsocialized alike; the folks you see on buses are often en route to jobs they hold, contra Murray, perfectly well. But if his argument is flawed, its aim is clear. All those stories of urban anarchy were, to Murray, accurate, everyday manifestations of the Black people we’d hidden from sight. The normal explanation, that their assumed bad behavior was a reaction to extraordinary circumstance — that was the wrong part. This had nothing to do with Katrina; it was part and parcel of an inferior race, an incorrigible culture. What is more disgusting that this guy’s article is that the WSJ would stoop to publish such trash just to sell newspapers.

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> This is how Neocons really talk about > the blacks in back rooms while sipping wine and eating French cheese: > Bill Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former > presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his > syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, > you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every > black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.

IMO, this guy is a sanctimonious blowhard hypocrite, and this is simply the latest installment in the lengthy resume documenting his condition. As an aside, it wouldn’t surprise me if he were greeted several times a day, when he was here in DC with: "You got some gravy on your tie, Bill." This is the same guy who took a bunch of public domain stories, wrapped them up in a book, and donning the robes of the holy, called the work "The Book of Virtues".  Tremendously successful. (And good for him to make a buck this way). All the while, this douche was addicted to…slot machine gambling… to the point where he had lost 5 or 10 million dollars…at *slots*! Losing money at poker or blackjack is one thing…but losing millions on *slots* proves he’s an absolute idiot.  Old ladies play slots, fer cryin out loud.  It’s a tax on the mathematically challenged. OTOH, there was no mention of slot gambling in his "Book of Virtues", so technically, he didn’t run afoul of that very important piece. Now, the book he apparently heard about, but did not read (or perhaps did not understand) from which his latest eruption came, is called "Freakonomics"…it’s a very quick read, and a fun book.  Steven Levitt uses economic and statistical techniques to debunk or question ‘common knowledge’ and ’sacred cows of political correctness’. The section he cited, and he got it all wrong, was a study as to why certain crime rates dropped dramatically, rather than increased dramatically as the ‘experts’ warned, in the mid 1990s…among poor and black populations in urban areas with bad crime at the time. The essence of *one* compelling possibility cited in the book was that Roe v Wade was decided in 1973.  Not giving anything away but the obvious, this made abortion for unwed mothers more available at all income levels.  The availability of abortion on demand reduced the number of ‘unwanted’ children born…this affected the birthrate of out-of-wedlock children…etc.  The surprise drop in crime mapped with nothing more closely than the time these children (read: boys) would have begun exerting themselves stupidly, as is common among adolescent boys.  The availability of abortion on demand in 1973 and on reduced the number of (in this case) black boys who came to age *just after* crime rates spiked in many cities. Now, the theme of the book deals with questioning ‘accepted truths’ with data, statistics, facts and methods…performing this analysis from many angles in order to draw conclusions, debunk ‘common knowledge’, or at least present hypotheses with a sound basis, having worked the problem. It’s not a book about race, abortion, or crime, any more than it is about child safety seats, or gun laws. It’s about applying sound methodologies to problems….where often sound methodologies are not used, but rather, appeals to emotions or fear. So, Bill, who probably didn’t read the book, or didn’t understand what it was about, thinks a relevant point to bring up (after citing the fucking title…that had to make Levitt cringe)…is that if we abort all black babies, our crime rate would go down. That, my friends, is one stupid motherfucking asshole.

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>This is how Neocons really talk about >the blacks in back rooms while sipping wine and eating French cheese: >Bill Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former >presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his >syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, >you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every >black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.

Back room? You just said he said that on a "syndicated radio talk show". Sounds like he has nothing to hide, unlike Hillary who has lit up the airwaves with her ‘back room’ talk. Bill Bennett is an individual who speaks for himself, as everyone does.

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Max,Had you been paying attention, Bennett was a often heard speaker-turd  with a high ranking position in two White Boys Only NeoCons administrations, one of them secretary of education. He favored prayer in school. Pro life Children only within marriage. Let me translate what he learned in those years : "Mr President: If we toss all the little nigger kids without dads in the dumpster after birth, we don’t have to give them welfare, education, have drug problem with them niggers at least, or build a jail for them. We can save alot of tax money and invest it is state gaming projects  !

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> That, my friends, is one stupid motherfucking asshole.

Jeez fish – we agree. or why the rooms cost $450.00 in Vegas during COMDEX.

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FYI  http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/bawnews/babydaddy106

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>Max,Had you been paying attention, Bennett was a >often heard speaker-turd  with a high ranking position in

Had you been paying attention, O.J. Simpson was an often heard speaker with a high ranking position with Hertz and ABC Sports. Got any other generalizations you want to make?

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"Got any other generalizations you want to make?" People named Mx Power are angry and dumb?

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Marknp sent me an online petition a few months ago. Something about free speech. Even though such "Astroturf Mobilization" is proven to be incredibly ineffective, wanting to support free speech, I almost put my name in there. Something told me that I should read what the petition was about first. I ended up not signing it and arguing against it. We have these "restaurants" here at Rutgers University called Grease Trucks that serve mostly Fat sandwiches. They are the fattiest sandwiches made by the dirtiest men in existence, but they taste really good. Anyways, they have names that start with Fat. Like Fat Darrel. Fat Cat. And so on. The fuss was about sandwiches called "Fat B!tch" and "Fat Dyke" and "Fat Filipino". People complained that these names were offensive, and the school forced them to change the names. Now they are called "Fat Beach" and "Fat Van Dyke" and I don’t know what happened to the last one. have a waterproof case. Well in case you haven’t heard by now, free speech is hardly unlimited. The Supreme Court has upheld flag burning, but has ruled that anarchy pamphlets do not count as "speech". To make a long story short, state governments can infringe upon free speech, but must prove that it serves a compelling state interest. Another thing about college kids is that they’ll always take the "cool" side. It’s cool to promote free speech, so most college kids will take the side of the Grease Trucks automatically. This phenomenon is known as pop politics. In the case of Fat Filipino, the case is pretty damn clear. How is the word "Filipino" offensive? It’s a sad sad day when minority groups take offensive to the proper English terminology for their group. It can’t be that the word "Fat" is paired with "Filipino", because every damn sandwich starts with "Fat". In the case of Fat B!tch, the case is a little less clear, but I’d still side with the Grease Trucks with this one. Rutgers harrasment policy defines harrasment as singling out a particular group. While "B!tch" may target women in particular, every single person reading this has been called a "b!tch" at some point. I’d argue that the word "b!tch" has become more of a general term to disparage in general. And while it may be bad language, everyone who goes to this school is old enough to be subject to obsenities. The important thing here is that harrasment policy doesn’t apply when a group isn’t singled out, so this case should have been void from the beginning. Now in the case of Fat Dyke, I have to argue against the Grease Trucks. Dyke clearly singles out a particular group: lesbians. Dyke is not the proper word to describe homosexual females. If the sandwich were named Fat Lesbian or Fat Homosexual or Fat Gay, I’d really have no problem with it. Those are proper terms. Now, dyke may have been used to describe harbors or something a long time ago, but it’s clearly used now to disparage lesbians. Asking the Grease Trucks to change the name isn’t such a horrible thing either. No one’s telling them to change the sandwich in any way. Just change the placard with its name. The Grease Trucks may not be officially Rutgers-affiliated, but they operate on campus and obviously must have some kind of contract with Rutgers. They are right across many of the classrooms and it’s not feasible to ask the offended to just stay away from the institution. Rutgers is also a publicly owned school and taxpayers money goes, in part, to create Fat Dyke signs. We were debating this in my Law And Politics recitation and had to write statements like judges and read them to the class. Someone said something to the effect of "We don’t want to show lesbian crybabies that they will get their way if they just cry about it…". That’s a great argument, Mr. Pop Politics. Now, I ask you, what would you think if there were a sandwich with your racial group’s name on it? I personally wouldn’t care if there was a Fat Korean, but I must say a Fat G*ok or a Fat Chink would rub me the wrong way. what do you do if there were sandwiches called Fat N*gger? Fat Black? Fat Jew? Fat K*ke? Fat Heeb? Fat Cracker? and so on. Words aren’t just their dictionary definitions. A word like "g*ok" has years of hatred and prejudice behind it. It’s not the word itself that’s offensive, it’s the word’s history. How many Asians were killed while being called "g0oks" and how many black people have suffered while being called "n*ggers"? Asking people to just take these words by their face values is completely unrealistic. Then again, we can’t just get offended by everything. I do not think calling anyone "black" is offensive. It’s informal for sure. "Black" may not be politically correct but it’s not offensive. Outdated terms fall here as well. A word like "Negro" is not offensive. It was the polite way to refer to black people a long time ago. It’s just outdated. Same as "Oriental", apparently Oriental only refers to rugs and stuff now. Who knew? The word "Jew" falls here, though I cannot fathom why it is offensive. Sure, it’s been used in hateful ways before, but so have words like "ugly". "Jew" is just short for Jewish people. "Jap" is just short for Japanese. If you find abbreviations offensive, I don’t know what to tell you. I think we can categorize words into offensive, politically incorrect, and the politically correct. Offensive words are fighting words; which means if you called a stranger a n*gger, you’re just asking for a fight. The PC people take offense to the politically incorrect words and no one has a problem with PC words, though people may find them just artificial and forced. The word "East Asian American" doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, y’know? If people have freedom of speech, then people also have the freedom to be offended. I am not advocating censorship. I am not saying that people should eliminate all fighting words from their vocabulary. I think people have the right to publish racist poems here and advocate racist views. Then raters have the right to rate NH or spit back some of their own flames. It’s great that certain people can take those fighting words and not be provoked and not be offended. Yet it’s hardly fair to ask everyone to do that. Speakers have to take responsibility for their speech and if the offended fire back, they have to take responsibility for their comments. Everyone has the right to be as offended as they want. When offensive words appear in public places owned by a university, the university has the right to censor if necessary. The Grease Trucks were not a publication one can just ignore. They were not a radio station one can tune out. And they are not an epinions essay that one can choose not to read. In the epinions realm, I advocate no censorship at all. I don’t know how we can get overly-PC people to stop being so PC, so it’s just something we have to deal with. Hopefully more members agree that diversity of values and freedom of expression is more important than appeasing everyone. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is how Neocons really talk about > the blacks in back rooms while sipping wine and eating French cheese: > Bill Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former > presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his > syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, > you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every > black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down. > "That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing > to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said. > Bennett served as Reagan’s chairman of the National Endowment for the > Humanities from 1981-1985 and secretary of education from 1985-1988. >From 1989-1990, he served as "drug czar" in the administration of the > elder Bush.

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You use OJ as a example ? WTF  ? An Uncle Tom football murder as a puppet for a Rental car business compared to an Education Cabinet Member of a President. You must be Black. Ummm… Maybe Bennett is right after all ! Thanks for the refresher on how lazy and useless the Black culture can be in America. Pretty soon those coons will show up at NASCAR and we’re lose another *sport* to them.

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> IMO, this guy is a sanctimonious blowhard hypocrite

So he’s really a typical right-winger.

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"Ummm… Maybe Bennett is right after all ! Thanks for the refresher on how lazy and useless the Black culture can be in America. Pretty soon those coons will show up at NASCAR and we’re lose another *sport* to them." You racist piece of shit.

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>"Got any other generalizations you want to make?" >People named Mx Power are angry and dumb?

Wow, zinger. I don’t know who’s teenage feelings I hurt more here, yours or that Scooter kid.

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Me ?  Racist ? No way. How many NASCAR black racers are there ? Last time I saw it on FOX, ABC,NBC, it’s all white people. Fat white people. So there. I’m bi-racist. I don’t think letting OJ race in NASCAR is a problem persay. He will bring all his white blonde girlfriends with him from his Miami ‘Hood of golfers. I just can’t see the sport very open to Caddies and 4 door Ford LTDs hogging the left lane all the time driving half the speed of others.

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NASCAR fruits? http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=… Samantha Bee reveals there might be some Nascar Dads who aren’t so into Nascar Moms.

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Today Bennett announced his resignation after the furor resulting from his unfortunate remarks.  Another dumbshit bites the dust.

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Here is another reason why they ain’t that smart to drive NASCAR (Caddies are automatics) :  A recent carjacking attempt in Shawnee, Kansas, was stalled by an unexpected anti-theft device – the targeted vehicle’s manual transmission. The suspect did not know how to operate one. Shawnee Police spokesperson Captain Ron Copeland said on September 26, the carjacker, who was armed with a shotgun, approached a man who had just parked a late-model Chevrolet Camaro in a company lot and ordered him out of the car. When the suspect entered the car, he discovered that it was equipped with a stick shift. "He’s probably too young to know how to drive a stick, but he knows how to rob," Copeland said. According to Copeland, the suspect, who is described as a thin black male in his late teens or early twenties, is a suspect in five other carjacking incidents in Johnson County. He remains at large. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ct/20050930/cr_ct/policecarjackerthwartedbyst…

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>Today Bennett announced his resignation after the furor resulting from >his unfortunate remarks.  Another dumbshit bites the dust.

Hmm…shades of Dan Rather.

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Bennet is nothing of the sort. Rather did nothing wrong and still wants the story continued to be investigated because there is truth behind the basis of it, where as Bennett is yet another O’Really/Reagan Yes man bullshitter who says dumpshit off the top of his empty head with no factual content.

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> Bennett is yet >another Yes man bullshitter who says >dumpshit off the top of his empty head with no factual content.

Hmm…shades of Dan Rather.

Response:

> NASCAR fruits? > http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=… > Samantha Bee reveals there might be some Nascar Dads who aren’t so into > Nascar Moms.

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Response:

Question:

(~) AN ACT OF GOD A Sermon by Thomas R. Henry St. Pauls United Church of Christ, Chicago September 11, 2005 Text: Genesis 6-9 (selections) And the Spirit o f God moved over the face of the chaos and destruction, and God said to Noah: "Well, I won

Question:

"They pretend to be doing some newfangled thing," he said, "but they’re really just hunting for the melody."

Response:

>"They pretend to be doing some newfangled thing," he said, "but they’re >really just hunting for the melody."

Wow. If he really said that, he just dropped about 20 more IQ points in my book. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

>>"They pretend to be doing some newfangled thing," he said, "but they’re >really just hunting for the melody." >Wow. If he really said that, he just dropped >about 20 more IQ points in my book.

That’d put the fool on the minus side of the scale in my book.        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> "They pretend to be doing some newfangled thing," he said, "but they’re > really just hunting for the melody."

You are a liar. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Jerry+Falwell%22+%22They+pret… A search on the Fox site returns the same (non-) result. You are a liar, a thief, and a plagiarist. Lord Valve American

Response:

>> "They pretend to be doing some newfangled thing," he said, "but they’re > really just hunting for the melody." >You are a liar.

Pot, kettle, etc. You’re an admitted liar. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

LV:  FFFrrrrraaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwpppp! LV’sFC:  Got it, boss!  Nice one!  More?

Response:

did courageously avow: >LV:  FFFrrrrraaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwpppp! >LV’sFC:  Got it, boss!  Nice one!  More?

Easy to catch your own when you’ve got your head up your ass isn’t it LV. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

>LV:  FFFrrrrraaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwpppp!

Another outstanding post. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

LV: <poot> LV’sFC:  <sniff>  Boss?  You ok?

Response:

1.At least he didn’t say they are *Monkeys* . Searching at www.fuxnew.com yields no hits. Was this the broadcast media ? Maybe your confusing Jerry with O’really or Pat Robertson. 2. Are LV and Jerry pen pals ? Maybe he knows something we don’t ? ;-)

Response:

> 1.At least he didn’t say they are *Monkeys*. Searching at > www.fuxnew.com yields no hits. Was this the broadcast media ? Maybe > your confusing Jerry with O’really or Pat Robertson.

Maybe you’re every bit as full of shit as Zootwoman. In fact, I can guarantee it. > 2. Are LV and Jerry pen pals ? Maybe he knows something we don’t ? ;-)

I’ll tell you what I know. People like Zootwoman, TamPaxDC, Ed Blum, Mulay, Morgen, Wilson et al routinely make shit up to dis conservatives with.  When they’re caught at it, they deal with the bust by simply not replying to it.  One of the first things Mulay and co. ever posted to this NG was a link to a communist propaganda film. When I called them on it, they ignored the issue completely, doing the usual You’re a Nazi Dance, fecal refs, etc. routine. I’m glad to see you’re continuing their tradition. There is no shortage of fuckwits to join the Baboon Squad; they may have lost one down in New Orleans, but the transition will be seamless – torrents of lies, queer screeds, accusations of Klan/Nazi Party membership etc. will continue to roar forth from losers just like you.  Forever. Lord Valve American

Response:

did courageously avow: >LV: <poot> >LV’sFC:  <sniff>  Boss?  You ok?

Got to get you head our of your ass there LV, you’ll suffocate.  On second thought, just keep on what you’re doing. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

did courageously avow: > 1.At least he didn’t say they are *Monkeys*. Searching at > www.fuxnew.com yields no hits. Was this the broadcast media ? Maybe > your confusing Jerry with O’really or Pat Robertson. >Maybe you’re every bit as full of shit as Zootwoman.

You’re the biggest pile of shit ever came out of a woman’s womb LV, working out of the shitiest little ghetto store in all of Denver. That probably explains why you’re this news group’s reigning expert on shit. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

>There is no shortage of fuckwits to join the >Baboon Squad; they may have lost one down >in New Orleans, but the transition will be seamless – >torrents of lies, queer screeds, accusations of >Klan/Nazi Party membership etc. will continue to >roar forth

 That is no way to talk about our President, Dick Cheney. You are going to give that man his 4th or 5th heart attack if he reads this, then  Rumsfield will take over. Smarten up.

Response:

>LV: <poot> >LV’sFC:  <sniff>  Boss?  You ok?

Oh, can it. You waited in the weeds for Anable, you follow up Pritchard’s posts with cutsey "osama bin" subject lines. Have a whiff yourself, pork. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

LV:  Splllaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrffff! LV’sFC:  Got it!  Keep ‘em comin’, boss!

Response:

>LV:  Splllaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrffff! >LV’sFC:  Got it!  Keep ‘em comin’, boss!

Oh, can it. You waited in the weeds for Anable, you follow up Pritchard’s posts with cutsey "osama bin" subject lines. Have a whiff yourself, pork. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

LV:  Sssssshhhhhhrrrraaaaaarrrrrrpppppp! LV’sFC:  Canned it boss!  I’m busy, sniff later.  More?

Response:

> LV:  Splllaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrffff! > LV’sFC:  Got it!  Keep ‘em comin’, boss!

For his next trick, Willie will combine his patented "fart" posts with with famous "My glass is on the road with Derek Trucks" posts. Expect a loud explosion emanating from his Denver area Taco Bell.   –E

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 1.At least he didn’t say they are *Monkeys*. Searching at > www.fuxnew.com yields no hits. Was this the broadcast media ? Maybe > your confusing Jerry with O’really or Pat Robertson. > Maybe you’re every bit as full of shit as Zootwoman. > In fact, I can guarantee it. > 2. Are LV and Jerry pen pals ? Maybe he knows something we don’t ? ;-) > I’ll tell you what I know. > People like Zootwoman, TamPaxDC, Ed Blum, Mulay, > Morgen, Wilson et al routinely make shit up to dis > conservatives with.  When they’re caught at it, they > deal with the bust by simply not replying to it. <snip>

Hmm. Would that be like your "I never mentioned my daughter on AGA" posts? Thing is, we’re not sure if you’re just a damn liar (probable), or if it’s just the senility brought on by your continually hardening arteries.   –E

Response:

>LV:  Sssssshhhhhhrrrraaaaaarrrrrrpppppp!

Oh, can it. You waited in the weeds for Anable, you follow up Pritchard’s posts with cutsey "osama bin" subject lines. Have a whiff yourself, pork. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

we don’t have to make it up. Get a load of Barbara – the poor are so lucky they lost everything because now they have it better shit. They came out if this so well. FEMA’s efforts to cover up support for Pat Robertson can’t be allowed to succeed by jefffromthenjdc Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 14:20:41 PDT [cross-posted at http://njdc.org/newsdigest/detail.php?id=472 ] >From the National Jewish Democratic Council (www.njdc.org)

As we struggle to grasp the extent of Hurricane Katrina’s aftermath, please — if you have not already done so — consider making a charitable donation to help the victims of this disaster. Please click here [ http://ga4.org/njdc/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=3593815 ] to see a listing of Jewish relief funds established to help the survivors of Hurricane Katrina. As Republicans and Democrats alike continue to decry the slow federal response and lack of initial assistance to those profoundly affected by this disaster — many of them impoverished — an additional facet of FEMA’s mishandling of this calamity has come to light. We are now learning that in the hours following Katrina’s landfall, FEMA — the Federal Emergency Management Agency, now a part of the Department of Homeland Security — rightly encouraged Americans to make charitable donations, but wrongly placed Pat Robertson at the top of that list. jefffromthenjdc’s diary :: :: Making matters worse is that as soon as this insult came under scrutiny, after millions of Americans had already been urged by FEMA to give to Robertson, FEMA began covering its tracks — erasing any sign of its actions from its Internet site. On August 29th, FEMA encouraged Americans to donate to three central charities on its web site — the Red Cross, Operation Blessing, and America’s Second Harvest. So what is Operation Blessing, and who are its leaders? A visit to Operation Blessing’s web site lists "M.G. Robertson" as the Chairman, and Dede Robertson as Vice President. Who is "M.G. Robertson?" None other than Pat Robertson himself; Robertson’s personal website identifies him as "M.G. Pat Robertson." And Dede? That’s his wife. This is of course the same Pat Robertson who urged the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez… the same Pat Robertson who intoned that God will judge Israel’s leaders harshly for withdrawing from Gaza — bringing sharp rebukes from the Anti-Defamation League [ http://adl.org/PresRele/IslME_62/4784_62.htm ] and many, many others. Operation Blessing tries to hide more than just its leadership, though; they would also be happy if we forgot some of what they’ve done. As reported two years ago http://www.msmagazine.com/sept03/sizemore.asp , "…Operation Blessing’s tax-exempt cargo planes were used almost exclusively for Roberton’s diamond-mining operation [in Zaire], not for humanitarian purposes. A subsequent investigation by Virginia authorities turned up evidence for charging Operation Blessing with violations of the state’s charitable solicitation law." But within hours of Internet blogs reporting on FEMA’s outrageous call to help Katrina’s victims by donating to Pat Robertson, FEMA pulled the references to Robertson’s group from their website. Not so fast: a snapshot of FEMA’s central Katrina donation page, still live as of August 31st , can be viewed by clicking here. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:ubRm81ixLicJ:https://www.fema.go… 18473+%22Volunteers+should+not+report+directly+to+the+affected+areas+unless +directed+by+a+voluntary+ agency%22+%22Operation+Blessing%22+site:fema.gov&hl=en

Response:

SANTORUM: Criminalize the Survivors by neoeconomist Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 14:10:08 PDT Here’s Ric (Chico) Santorum on how to improve our disaster management.  "…you have people who don’t heed those warnings and then put people at risk as a result of not heeding those warnings. There may be a need to look at tougher penalties on those who decide to ride it out and understand that there are consequences to not leaving." Here’s video in case he claims being misquoted: http://ga4.org/ct/r71Uld61xz5A/ The Repugs are really showing their colors this week.   My wife almost gagged when she heard Babs Bushes comments.   From Santorum however this is nothing surprising.   The surprise is that his campaign handlers havent had his vocal chords snipped yet.

Response:

Question:

It was costing Israel too much to defend these small settlements so for the people’s own safety, Sharon made a courageous decision.   He is taking a lot of flack for it including from his own people.  The Israeli army is already spread too thin and Sharon made the best decision for the country.

Response:

> It was costing Israel too much to defend these small settlements so for > the people’s own safety, Sharon made a courageous decision.   He is > taking a lot of flack for it including from his own people.  The > Israeli army is already spread too thin and Sharon made the best > decision for the country.

Connie, who likely has never visited Israel, makes sweeping generalizations, that are, of course, WRONG.  Israel comprises less area smaller than New Jersey, and their army has no difficulty handling that area, with  universal conscription.  There is no shortage of troops and no problem at all.  When one visits Israel, one sees the army everywhere, as Israeli army policy is to allow as much home time as possible, and it is possible because of the short distances of travel involved.  Israeli soldiers are everywhere as a result. Sharon, like Nixon before him who opened China, was likely the only politician who could have done it, having had to make a complete 180 reversal of his previous positions.  The Israeli government and a slight majority of the people want peace and what they DON’T want is an Arab majority in Israel with an enormous birth rate.  The decision to abandon the settlements was shrewd, both in ridding Israel of an indigenous population who could only cause trouble, while at the same time, giving them what they ostensibly wanted.  The ball is now in their court and if militant Arab organizations act up, the world( including the liberal Israel haters ) will have no choice but to acknowledge what Israel was saying all along. The impetus for Israel’s actions is to reduce its Arab population while at the same time, gaining security that it has always wanted.  Sharon made a political decision, which is in opposition to Jewish religious aims, and therefore, is causing the current schism in the country.  The Orthodox favoring retaining the settlements, while secular Jews( around 60% of the population favor his actions ).                         Alan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t know how to interpret the Israeli army going against their own >people. This is really scary and I hope not a preview of what will come when >our own people decide that government has gone too far…. >Thank God we have the right to bear arms unlike those poor fishermen in Gaza >who believed in their ‘elected’ government. >It seems as though only Switzerland and the US have a citizenry capable of >making government, foreign or domestic, think twice about evicting people >from their homes. >I am really confused on this one because I though the Israelis had it pretty >much under control. Why give up territory you won in a fair game of war? >(They were the underdogs, remember?) >Wayne >Settlements in Gaza are in contrary to international law, and are a >continuing provocation to the half crazed Muslim population. Israel >needs to separate the Jewish population from the Muslim killers, and >it can’t do that with tiny settlements scattered around in a sea of >Arabs. Ariel Sharon understands that, even if you don’t. In any event, >why anyone would want to live in a Hell hole like Gaza, surrounded by >blood thirsty fanatics is beyond my comprehension. >"Arguing on UseNet is like competing in the Special >Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded."

   Only "half -crazed"?  If I were a Palestinian living in Palestine, I expect I’d be fully crazed by now.  You might argue that I started on third base, but I seem to have been right about most things political lately.

Response:

You have a point. I would not want to live amongst people who only want to see me dead!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t know how to interpret the Israeli army going against their own >people. This is really scary and I hope not a preview of what will come when >our own people decide that government has gone too far…. >Thank God we have the right to bear arms unlike those poor fishermen in Gaza >who believed in their ‘elected’ government. >It seems as though only Switzerland and the US have a citizenry capable of >making government, foreign or domestic, think twice about evicting people >from their homes. >I am really confused on this one because I though the Israelis had it pretty >much under control. Why give up territory you won in a fair game of war? >(They were the underdogs, remember?) >Wayne > Settlements in Gaza are in contrary to international law, and are a > continuing provocation to the half crazed Muslim population. Israel > needs to separate the Jewish population from the Muslim killers, and > it can’t do that with tiny settlements scattered around in a sea of > Arabs. Ariel Sharon understands that, even if you don’t. In any event, > why anyone would want to live in a Hell hole like Gaza, surrounded by > blood thirsty fanatics is beyond my comprehension. > "Arguing on UseNet is like competing in the Special > Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded."

Response:

>I don’t know how to interpret the Israeli army going against their own >people. This is really scary and I hope not a preview of what will come when >our own people decide that government has gone too far….

Why they already have and covered it up nicely with lies too. Certainly you’ve heard of the debacle in Waco Texas and the massacre at Ruby Ridge. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thank God we have the right to bear arms unlike those poor fishermen in Gaza >who believed in their ‘elected’ government. >It seems as though only Switzerland and the US have a citizenry capable of >making government, foreign or domestic, think twice about evicting people >from their homes. >I am really confused on this one because I though the Israelis had it pretty >much under control. Why give up territory you won in a fair game of war? >(They were the underdogs, remember?) >Wayne

Response:

I don’t know how to interpret the Israeli army going against their own people. This is really scary and I hope not a preview of what will come when our own people decide that government has gone too far…. Thank God we have the right to bear arms unlike those poor fishermen in Gaza who believed in their ‘elected’ government. It seems as though only Switzerland and the US have a citizenry capable of making government, foreign or domestic, think twice about evicting people from their homes. I am really confused on this one because I though the Israelis had it pretty much under control. Why give up territory you won in a fair game of war? (They were the underdogs, remember?) Wayne

Response:

Question:

While we hurl "neocon"! "Liberal"! at each other THIS clock ticks… By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Published: June 26, 2005 The biggest risk we Americans face to our way of life and our place in the world probably doesn’t come from Al Qaeda or the Iraq war. Rather, the biggest risk may come from this administration’s fiscal recklessness and the way this is putting us in hock to China. "I think the greatest threat to our future is our fiscal irresponsibility," warns David Walker, the comptroller general of the United States. Mr. Walker, an accountant by training, asserts that last year may have been the most fiscally reckless in the history of our Republic. Aside from the budget deficit, Congress enacted the prescription drug benefit – possibly an $8 trillion obligation – without figuring out how to pay for it. Mr. Walker, America’s watchdog in chief and head of the Government Accountability Office, is no Bush-basher. He started out his career as a conservative Democrat, then became a moderate Republican and has been an independent since 1997. Now he’s running around with his hair on fire, shrieking about America’s finances. Well, as much as any accountant ever shrieks. I asked Mr. Walker about Paul Volcker’s warning that within five years we face a 75 percent chance of a serious financial crisis. "If we don’t get serious soon," Mr. Walker replied, "it’s not a question of whether it’ll come, but when and how serious." Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel-winning economist, says he is also "very worried." "I find it very difficult to know how to put a number" on the probability of a crisis, he added, "but there’s a widespread sense in the market that there is a substantial chance." Another issue is that three-fourths of our new debt is now being purchased by foreigners, with China the biggest buyer of all. That gives China leverage over us, and it undermines our national security. On fiscal matters both parties have much to be ashamed of, but Republicans should be particularly embarrassed at their tumble. Traditionally, Republicans were prudent, while Democrats held great parties. But these days, the Bush administration is managing America’s finances like a team of drunken sailors, and most Republicans keep quiet in a way that betrays their conservative principles. Senator Chuck Hagel, a Republican, wrote a couple of years ago: "Republicans used to believe in balanced budgets. … We have lost our way." He’s right. Critics have pounded the Bush administration for its faulty intelligence in the run-up to the war in Iraq. But President Bush peddled tax cuts with data that ultimately proved equally faulty – yet the tax cuts remain cemented in place. Go to www.whitehouse.gov and read Mr. Bush’s speech when he presented his first budget in February 2001. He foresaw a $5.6 trillion surplus over 10 years and emphasized that much of that would go to paying down the debt. "I hope you will join me to pay down $2 trillion in debt during the next 10 years," Mr. Bush said then, between his calls for tax cuts. "That is more debt, repaid more quickly, than has ever been repaid by any nation at any time in history." His budget message that year promised that the U.S. would be "on a glide path toward zero debt." Oh? More than two centuries of American government produced a cumulative national debt of $5.7 trillion when Mr. Bush was elected in 2000. And now that is expected to almost double by 2010, to $10.8 trillion. Some readers may be surprised to see me fulminating about budget deficits, since often I’m bouncing over ruts abroad trying to call attention to some forgotten crisis, like Darfur. But there is a common thread: These are issues that aren’t sexy, that don’t get television time and that most Americans tune out – yet demand action on our part for both moral and practical reasons. America’s fiscal mess may be even harder to write about engagingly than Darfur, because the victims of our fiscal recklessness aren’t weeping widows whose children were heaved onto bonfires. But if you need to visualize the victims, think of your child’s face, or your grandchild’s. President Bush has excoriated the "death tax," as he calls the estate tax. But his profligacy will leave every American child facing a "birth tax" of about $150,000. That’s right: every American child arrives owing that much, partly to babies in China and Japan. No wonder babies cry.

Response:

Do ANY of you guys remember the 3-4 years of "warnings" that kept bubbling up from about 1997 on, about the threat of terrorism coming to the USA? After a while, we all got numb to it. Then it …turned out 9/11/01 was the *ultimate* telegraphed punch. Well, now we’re facing what I think could be the mother of all $$$ bummers in "our" ("baby boomers" b.’46-’64, Gen X, Millenials) generations…these people aren’t mere lame assed reporters; "…I asked Mr. Walker about Paul Volcker’s warning that within five years we face a 75 percent chance of a serious financial crisis. "If we don’t get serious soon," Mr. Walker replied, "it’s not a question of whether it’ll come, but when and how serious." Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel-winning economist, says he is also "very worried." "I find it very difficult to know how to put a number" on the probability of a crisis, he added, "but there’s a widespread sense in the market that there is a substantial chance." …." In a post the other day, I itemized the investment banking syndicate assisting CNOOC w/ the Unocal bid. I maintain that Congress ought to put the brakes on that shit asap. Those Gordon Gekkos ought to be pulled before a Senate Subcommittee and grilled with national exposure the way tobacco CEO’s were. We need to make that gig disappear. China is eating America’s lunch and it needs to be stopped cold.

Response:

an equivelant reply to me calling a lefty a "liberal" would be if he called me a "conservative". i will admit that "lefty" is a little closer to "neo-con" except that there is no "neo-nazi" comparison in using "liberal" as there is in "neo-con". what is it that i am supposed to reply with when i am called a "nazi"? (my father fought and sacrificed to defeat the nazi’s). i suppose that i could reply with "commie", but since Reagan kicked their ass, the name has really lost its bite. my OWN opinion is that the democrats are much closer to being aligned with "nazi’s" than are the republicans, so if you call me a nazi, i suppose i will probably call you a nazi back. in the end though, "NEO-CON" is a serious insult commonly thrown around by liberals. "LIBERAL" is just a seriously insulting thing to be. grow some dignity, aga’ers, become conservatives. Conservative doesn’t sound like an insult. apparently "liberal" does! paul az

Response:

History seems to teach so many so little. Thus, although "hope springs eternal" -so does horror. mvm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > "…my OWN opinion is that the democrats are much closer to being aligned with > "nazi’s" than are the republicans, so if you call me a nazi, i suppose i > will probably call you a nazi back…" > paul > az

Response:

as always, meaning of language is contextual. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > an equivelant reply to me calling a lefty a "liberal" would be if he called > me a "conservative". i will admit that "lefty" is a little closer to > "neo-con" except that there is no "neo-nazi" comparison in using "liberal" > as there is in "neo-con". what is it that i am supposed to reply with when i > am called a "nazi"? (my father fought and sacrificed to defeat the nazi’s). > i suppose that i could reply with "commie", but since Reagan kicked their > ass, the name has really lost its bite. > my OWN opinion is that the democrats are much closer to being aligned with > "nazi’s" than are the republicans, so if you call me a nazi, i suppose i > will probably call you a nazi back. > in the end though, "NEO-CON" is a serious insult commonly thrown around by > liberals. "LIBERAL" is just a seriously insulting thing to be. grow some > dignity, aga’ers, become conservatives. Conservative doesn’t sound like an > insult. apparently "liberal" does! > paul > az

Response:

I think neo-cons invented that term themselves and call themselves that. Usually people do not name themselves with insulting names. I mean your mom didn’t name you Paul to insult you. These guys didn’t call themselves neo-conservative to insult themselves. It was to different themselves from other political groups like paleo-republicans. Some Paleo’s migh be insulted at being called that but it depends on context, some of them call themselves Paleo-republicans. http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/courses/ed253a/neo-conservative_families.html Neoconservatives are former liberals (which explains the "neo" prefix) who advocate an aggressive unilateralist vision of U.S. global supremacy, which includes a close strategic alliance with Israel. " Lobe doesn’t give us much background on the origin of neoconservatism, which, in my view, is important if we wish to understand today’s situation. President of the Arab American Institute, James Zogby gives us this account of the etymology of neoconservative: "Neoconservatism is the secular political philosophy that defined the reaction of a group of former liberals to what they felt was the Democratic party’s policy of appeasement toward the Soviet Union–most especially the USSR’s treatment of its Jewish population and its relations with the Arab world. They were a small but influential group of writers, commentators and government officials." (4) As a term, Neoconservative has earlier roots However, as an explanation of neoconservatism, this description is incomplete. In the JSTOR database, i.e., fulltext scholarly journals, the first use of neoconservative traces back to 1932, in a history of philosophy study, authored by a German. (In the context, ‘neoconservative’ emerges as a translation of a concept orginally in German, so the coinage may have occurred as part of the translation. By the 1950s, the term was frequently used, especially in the sense of a revival of conservative thought. Take the article, "Democracy, the New Conservatism, and the Liberal Tradition in America", by Stuart Gerry Brown, Ethics, Volume 66, Issue 1, Part 1 (Oct., 1955), 1-9. In 1955, according to Brown, if any sense can be made out of the intellectual confusion which has characterized America in the decade since the end of the Second World War, it would seem to be a gradually concerted movement backward — a revival of conservatism, even at times of reaction. Liberalism has been pronounced officially dead, though most politicians seem still to feel a need to profess it’ The fear of international Communist aggression has led to an obsession with security and a growing constriction of thought and action. There is a call for religious revival to provide aid and comfort in a world of anxiety and tension.’ Political thinkers who, twenty years ago, might have been speaking their pieces as bits in the liberal ferment of the New Deal, are turning nowadays to the prescriptions of Burke — and remaining largely aloof from the world of affairs. They urge upon us the ideas of eccentrics from the American tradition like Calhoun and John Randolph of Roanoke; they teach us to prefer Adams to Jefferson; they defend the Sedition Act; and they as sure us that the American Revolution was in fact no revolution at all. The talk is of conservatism and of distrust in equality and democracy. http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/001679.html Irving Kristol, the godfather of neoconservatism, has emerged from his recent retirement to issue an apologia for his godchild: "The Neoconservative Persuasion." Written in Kristol’s usual lucid and genially authoritative style, the article is a revealing exposition of neoconservative beliefs and purposes as they stand at this remarkable historical moment, when the president has adopted the neoconservative agenda of imposing democracy and equal individual rights on other countries, even as the Supreme Court has overturned the principle of equal individual rights in this country. I am reproducing Kristol’s entire article here along with my running commentary, which is bolded and bracketed throughout.

Response:

> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/24/221855/605 > It shows that the ONLY TIME since 1970 that this country has not been > in the red ink, was during Clinton’s second term.

And what was different about Clinton’s first term vs his second? During his first term Dems also controlled the House, Senate, AND the White House, and all they wanted to do was spend money. During the second term, Repubs controlled the House, and they cut spending WAYYYYYYY back. Clinton VETOED the first 2 times that a balanced budget was brought to him. He did sign it the 3rd time it came his way when it passed Congress with SOOooo many votes that they would have been able to over ride his veto. That’s the good news. The bad news, with a Repub majority in both the Congress, and the White House, spending has grown like the Dems wanted to when they controlled it all..:0( See ya, John

Response:

>>And what was different about Clinton’s first term vs his second? > It took a few years to pay down the red ink.

Cute ! See ya, John

Response:

 I just saw a program about China and environmental pollution and it mentioned that China could eventually face an environmental crises that could necesitate as a means for solving it, withdrawel of almost all of their monies wordwide causing a disastrous financial impact on the worlds economies.

: While we hurl "neocon"! "Liberal"! at each other THIS clock ticks… : : : : By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF : : Published: June 26, 2005 : : The biggest risk we Americans face to our way of life and our place in : the world probably doesn’t come from Al Qaeda or the Iraq war. : : Rather, the biggest risk may come from this administration’s fiscal : recklessness and the way this is putting us in hock to China. : : "I think the greatest threat to our future is our fiscal : irresponsibility," warns David Walker, the comptroller general of the : United States. Mr. Walker, an accountant by training, asserts that last : year may have been the most fiscally reckless in the history of our : Republic. Aside from the budget deficit, Congress enacted the : prescription drug benefit – possibly an $8 trillion obligation – without : figuring out how to pay for it. : : Mr. Walker, America’s watchdog in chief and head of the Government : Accountability Office, is no Bush-basher. He started out his career as a : conservative Democrat, then became a moderate Republican and has been an : independent since 1997. : : Now he’s running around with his hair on fire, shrieking about America’s : finances. Well, as much as any accountant ever shrieks. : : I asked Mr. Walker about Paul Volcker’s warning that within five years : we face a 75 percent chance of a serious financial crisis. : : "If we don’t get serious soon," Mr. Walker replied, "it’s not a question : of whether it’ll come, but when and how serious." : : Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel-winning economist, says he is also "very : worried." : : "I find it very difficult to know how to put a number" on the : probability of a crisis, he added, "but there’s a widespread sense in : the market that there is a substantial chance." : : Another issue is that three-fourths of our new debt is now being : purchased by foreigners, with China the biggest buyer of all. That gives : China leverage over us, and it undermines our national security. : : On fiscal matters both parties have much to be ashamed of, but : Republicans should be particularly embarrassed at their tumble. : Traditionally, Republicans were prudent, while Democrats held great : parties. But these days, the Bush administration is managing America’s : finances like a team of drunken sailors, and most Republicans keep quiet : in a way that betrays their conservative principles. : : Senator Chuck Hagel, a Republican, wrote a couple of years ago: : "Republicans used to believe in balanced budgets. … We have lost our : way." He’s right. : : Critics have pounded the Bush administration for its faulty intelligence : in the run-up to the war in Iraq. But President Bush peddled tax cuts : with data that ultimately proved equally faulty – yet the tax cuts : remain cemented in place. : : Go to www.whitehouse.gov and read Mr. Bush’s speech when he presented : his first budget in February 2001. He foresaw a $5.6 trillion surplus : over 10 years and emphasized that much of that would go to paying down : the debt. : : "I hope you will join me to pay down $2 trillion in debt during the next : 10 years," Mr. Bush said then, between his calls for tax cuts. "That is : more debt, repaid more quickly, than has ever been repaid by any nation : at any time in history." His budget message that year promised that the : U.S. would be "on a glide path toward zero debt." : : Oh? : : More than two centuries of American government produced a cumulative : national debt of $5.7 trillion when Mr. Bush was elected in 2000. And : now that is expected to almost double by 2010, to $10.8 trillion. : : Some readers may be surprised to see me fulminating about budget : deficits, since often I’m bouncing over ruts abroad trying to call : attention to some forgotten crisis, like Darfur. But there is a common : thread: These are issues that aren’t sexy, that don’t get television : time and that most Americans tune out – yet demand action on our part : for both moral and practical reasons. : : America’s fiscal mess may be even harder to write about engagingly than : Darfur, because the victims of our fiscal recklessness aren’t weeping : widows whose children were heaved onto bonfires. But if you need to : visualize the victims, think of your child’s face, or your grandchild’s. : : President Bush has excoriated the "death tax," as he calls the estate : tax. But his profligacy will leave every American child facing a "birth : tax" of about $150,000. : : That’s right: every American child arrives owing that much, partly to : babies in China and Japan. No wonder babies cry. :

Response:

What they call peaseant revolts over there are becoming more frequent. Many of them have to do with industrial polution so bad that entire towns have cancer. Just google chinese peasent revolts and see what you come up with.

Response:

> I think neo-cons invented that term themselves and call themselves > that. Usually people do not name themselves with insulting names. I > mean your mom didn’t name you Paul to insult

you. These guys didn’t > call themselves neo-conservative to insult

themselves. It was to > different themselves from other political groups like > paleo-republicans. Some Paleo’s migh be insulted

at being called that > but it depends on context, some of them call themselves > Paleo-republicans.

I like the RINOs. They piss off *both* the neos and paleos. heh heh heh heh http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/courses/ed253a/neo-conservative_families.html > Neoconservatives are former liberals (which

explains the "neo" prefix) > who advocate an aggressive unilateralist vision of U.S. global > supremacy, which includes a close strategic

alliance with Israel. " > Lobe doesn’t give us much background on the

origin of neoconservatism, > which, in my view, is important if we wish to understand today’s > situation. President of the Arab American

Institute, James Zogby gives > us this account of the etymology of neoconservative: > "Neoconservatism is the secular political

philosophy that defined the > reaction of a group of former liberals to what they felt was the > Democratic party’s policy of appeasement toward

the Soviet Union–most > especially the USSR’s treatment of its Jewish population and its > relations with the Arab world. They were a small

but influential group > of writers, commentators and government officials." > (4) As a term, Neoconservative has earlier roots > However, as an explanation of neoconservatism, this description is > incomplete. In the JSTOR database, i.e.,

fulltext scholarly journals, > the first use of neoconservative traces back to

1932, in a history of > philosophy study, authored by a German. (In the context, > ‘neoconservative’ emerges as a translation of a

concept orginally in > German, so the coinage may have occurred as part

of the translation. By > the 1950s, the term was frequently used,

especially in the sense of a > revival of conservative thought. Take the

article, "Democracy, the New > Conservatism, and the Liberal Tradition in

America", by Stuart Gerry > Brown, Ethics, Volume 66, Issue 1, Part 1 (Oct.,

1955), 1-9. In 1955, > according to Brown, > if any sense can be made out of the intellectual confusion which has > characterized America in the decade since the

end of the Second World > War, it would seem to be a gradually concerted

movement backward — a > revival of conservatism, even at times of

reaction. Liberalism has been > pronounced officially dead, though most

politicians seem still to feel > a need to profess it’ The fear of international

Communist aggression > has led to an obsession with security and a

growing constriction of > thought and action. There is a call for

religious revival to provide > aid and comfort in a world of anxiety and

tension.’ Political thinkers > who, twenty years ago, might have been speaking

their pieces as bits in > the liberal ferment of the New Deal, are turning nowadays to the > prescriptions of Burke — and remaining largely

aloof from the world of > affairs. They urge upon us the ideas of

eccentrics from the American > tradition like Calhoun and John Randolph of

Roanoke; they teach us to > prefer Adams to Jefferson; they defend the

Sedition Act; and they as > sure us that the American Revolution was in fact

no revolution at all. > The talk is of conservatism and of distrust in

equality and democracy. > http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/001679.html > Irving Kristol, the godfather of

neoconservatism, has emerged from his > recent retirement to issue an apologia for his godchild: "The > Neoconservative Persuasion." Written in

Kristol’s usual lucid and > genially authoritative style, the article is a

revealing exposition of > neoconservative beliefs and purposes as they

stand at this remarkable > historical moment, when the president has

adopted the neoconservative > agenda of imposing democracy and equal

individual rights on other > countries, even as the Supreme Court has

overturned the principle of > equal individual rights in this country. I am

reproducing Kristol’s > entire article here along with my running

commentary, which is bolded – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> and bracketed throughout.

Response:

well there’s the world and then there’s EU and US and China seeing as we have 80% there’s not far to collapse for the rest. How’s that blues song go? Been down so long looks like up to me. It’s those rich guys with the fancy weapons that are the real danger to life, yeah – the culture of life guys. Cause I used to want to be a hippie when I grew up and admire the Amish and am interested in off grid life styles, I can tell you that living with out oil ain’t no big deal. In fact most people in the world do it. It’ll just be a different kind of economy. It’s too bad we’ll wait until we’re forced to do it instead of making it a great national adventure like space travel or going to the moon. Nooo instead we’ll have to have a big jealous national fit if China beats us at our oil game and then we’ll have to kill everyone so no one can have it like some guy who won’t let another man take his wife. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just saw a program about China and environmental pollution >and it mentioned that China could eventually face an >environmental crises that could necesitate as a means for >solving it, withdrawel of almost all of their monies wordwide >causing a disastrous financial impact on the worlds economies. > The world economy will collapse long before that as a result of the end of > cheap oil. >: While we hurl "neocon"! "Liberal"! at each other THIS clock ticks… >: >: >: >: By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF >: >: Published: June 26, 2005 >: >: The biggest risk we Americans face to our way of life and our place in >: the world probably doesn’t come from Al Qaeda or the Iraq war. >: >: Rather, the biggest risk may come from this administration’s fiscal >: recklessness and the way this is putting us in hock to China. >: >: "I think the greatest threat to our future is our fiscal >: irresponsibility," warns David Walker, the comptroller general of the >: United States. Mr. Walker, an accountant by training, asserts that last >: year may have been the most fiscally reckless in the history of our >: Republic. Aside from the budget deficit, Congress enacted the >: prescription drug benefit – possibly an $8 trillion obligation – without >: figuring out how to pay for it. >: >: Mr. Walker, America’s watchdog in chief and head of the Government >: Accountability Office, is no Bush-basher. He started out his career as a >: conservative Democrat, then became a moderate Republican and has been an >: independent since 1997. >: >: Now he’s running around with his hair on fire, shrieking about America’s >: finances. Well, as much as any accountant ever shrieks. >: >: I asked Mr. Walker about Paul Volcker’s warning that within five years >: we face a 75 percent chance of a serious financial crisis. >: >: "If we don’t get serious soon," Mr. Walker replied, "it’s not a question >: of whether it’ll come, but when and how serious." >: >: Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel-winning economist, says he is also "very >: worried." >: >: "I find it very difficult to know how to put a number" on the >: probability of a crisis, he added, "but there’s a widespread sense in >: the market that there is a substantial chance." >: >: Another issue is that three-fourths of our new debt is now being >: purchased by foreigners, with China the biggest buyer of all. That gives >: China leverage over us, and it undermines our national security. >: >: On fiscal matters both parties have much to be ashamed of, but >: Republicans should be particularly embarrassed at their tumble. >: Traditionally, Republicans were prudent, while Democrats held great >: parties. But these days, the Bush administration is managing America’s >: finances like a team of drunken sailors, and most Republicans keep quiet >: in a way that betrays their conservative principles. >: >: Senator Chuck Hagel, a Republican, wrote a couple of years ago: >: "Republicans used to believe in balanced budgets. … We have lost our >: way." He’s right. >: >: Critics have pounded the Bush administration for its faulty intelligence >: in the run-up to the war in Iraq. But President Bush peddled tax cuts >: with data that ultimately proved equally faulty – yet the tax cuts >: remain cemented in place. >: >: Go to www.whitehouse.gov and read Mr. Bush’s speech when he presented >: his first budget in February 2001. He foresaw a $5.6 trillion surplus >: over 10 years and emphasized that much of that would go to paying down >: the debt. >: >: "I hope you will join me to pay down $2 trillion in debt during the next >: 10 years," Mr. Bush said then, between his calls for tax cuts. "That is >: more debt, repaid more quickly, than has ever been repaid by any nation >: at any time in history." His budget message that year promised that the >: U.S. would be "on a glide path toward zero debt." >: >: Oh? >: >: More than two centuries of American government produced a cumulative >: national debt of $5.7 trillion when Mr. Bush was elected in 2000. And >: now that is expected to almost double by 2010, to $10.8 trillion. >: >: Some readers may be surprised to see me fulminating about budget >: deficits, since often I’m bouncing over ruts abroad trying to call >: attention to some forgotten crisis, like Darfur. But there is a common >: thread: These are issues that aren’t sexy, that don’t get television >: time and that most Americans tune out – yet demand action on our part >: for both moral and practical reasons. >: >: America’s fiscal mess may be even harder to write about engagingly than >: Darfur, because the victims of our fiscal recklessness aren’t weeping >: widows whose children were heaved onto bonfires. But if you need to >: visualize the victims, think of your child’s face, or your grandchild’s. >: >: President Bush has excoriated the "death tax," as he calls the estate >: tax. But his profligacy will leave every American child facing a "birth >: tax" of about $150,000. >: >: That’s right: every American child arrives owing that much, partly to >: babies in China and Japan. No wonder babies cry. >: > your name here!

Response:

Yeah, actually I was aware of that- Deficit spending has never hurt the U.S. – problem is, the sheer SIZE of this deficit relative to GDP and more importantly, relative to the *trade*  *deficit*. U.S. GDP doesn’t mean a damn thing if no one’s consuming what we’re producing…we’re now consuming what everyone *else* is producing. In the process, the U.S. itself is *getting* consumed. Bad news. Very. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Check out this little graph: > http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/24/221855/605 > It shows that the ONLY TIME since 1970 that this country has not been > in the red ink, was during Clinton’s second term.  I didn’t realize > this myself — it’s amazing. If you look at the graphic, it’s pretty > much a sea of red ink during Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. >While we hurl "neocon"! "Liberal"! at each other THIS clock ticks… >By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF >Published: June 26, 2005 >The biggest risk we Americans face to our way of life and our place in >the world probably doesn’t come from Al Qaeda or the Iraq war. >Rather, the biggest risk may come from this administration’s fiscal >recklessness and the way this is putting us in hock to China. >"I think the greatest threat to our future is our fiscal >irresponsibility," warns David Walker, the comptroller general of the >United States. Mr. Walker, an accountant by training, asserts that last >year may have been the most fiscally reckless in the history of our >Republic. Aside from the budget deficit, Congress enacted the >prescription drug benefit – possibly an $8 trillion obligation – without >figuring out how to pay for it. >Mr. Walker, America’s watchdog in chief and head of the Government >Accountability Office, is no Bush-basher. He started out his career as a >conservative Democrat, then became a moderate Republican and has been an >independent since 1997. >Now he’s running around with his hair on fire, shrieking about America’s >finances. Well, as much as any accountant ever shrieks. >I asked Mr. Walker about Paul Volcker’s warning that within five years >we face a 75 percent chance of a serious financial crisis. >"If we don’t get serious soon," Mr. Walker replied, "it’s not a question >of whether it’ll come, but when and how serious." >Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel-winning economist, says he is also "very >worried." >"I find it very difficult to know how to put a number" on the >probability of a crisis, he added, "but there’s a widespread sense in >the market that there is a substantial chance." >Another issue is that three-fourths of our new debt is now being >purchased by foreigners, with China the biggest buyer of all. That gives >China leverage over us, and it undermines our national security. >On fiscal matters both parties have much to be ashamed of, but >Republicans should be particularly embarrassed at their tumble. >Traditionally, Republicans were prudent, while Democrats held great >parties. But these days, the Bush administration is managing America’s >finances like a team of drunken sailors, and most Republicans keep quiet >in a way that betrays their conservative principles. >Senator Chuck Hagel, a Republican, wrote a couple of years ago: >"Republicans used to believe in balanced budgets. … We have lost our >way." He’s right. >Critics have pounded the Bush administration for its faulty intelligence >in the run-up to the war in Iraq. But President Bush peddled tax cuts >with data that ultimately proved equally faulty – yet the tax cuts >remain cemented in place. >Go to www.whitehouse.gov and read Mr. Bush’s speech when he presented >his first budget in February 2001. He foresaw a $5.6 trillion surplus >over 10 years and emphasized that much of that would go to paying down >the debt. >"I hope you will join me to pay down $2 trillion in debt during the next >10 years," Mr. Bush said then, between his calls for tax cuts. "That is >more debt, repaid more quickly, than has ever been repaid by any nation >at any time in history." His budget message that year promised that the >U.S. would be "on a glide path toward zero debt." >Oh? >More than two centuries of American government produced a cumulative >national debt of $5.7 trillion when Mr. Bush was elected in 2000. And >now that is expected to almost double by 2010, to $10.8 trillion. >Some readers may be surprised to see me fulminating about budget >deficits, since often I’m bouncing over ruts abroad trying to call >attention to some forgotten crisis, like Darfur. But there is a common >thread: These are issues that aren’t sexy, that don’t get television >time and that most Americans tune out – yet demand action on our part >for both moral and practical reasons. >America’s fiscal mess may be even harder to write about engagingly than >Darfur, because the victims of our fiscal recklessness aren’t weeping >widows whose children were heaved onto bonfires. But if you need to >visualize the victims, think of your child’s face, or your grandchild’s. >President Bush has excoriated the "death tax," as he calls the estate >tax. But his profligacy will leave every American child facing a "birth >tax" of about $150,000. >That’s right: every American child arrives owing that much, partly to >babies in China and Japan. No wonder babies cry. > your name here!

Response:

Good post- Not that the twisted will heed it, however. mvm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > con

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I > must say): > If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing > the feeding tube > and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her > own’ ? Let’s just > get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother > her . Or inject > her with > heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which > is exactly what > removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it over > with and not have > it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on > CNN which could be > used to cover more newsworthy subjects. > Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid > guilt, as Pontius > Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put the > blame on the > backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her > own…she didn’t eat’. > It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case of > just putting a > bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’. > Failing to keep someone alive, regardless of their ability > to keep themselves alive, is not always the same thing as > "murder".  Not saying that I agree with removing the feeding > tube, but murder is a specific offense and I’m not sure that > you can prove all of the elements of that offense in this > case.

Moot point, if her caretaker was Polfus.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): >If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing the feeding tube >and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just >get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother her . Or inject >her with >heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which is exactly what >removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it over with and not have >it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on CNN which could be >used to cover more newsworthy subjects. >Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid guilt, as Pontius >Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put the blame on the >backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her own…she didn’t eat’. >It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case of just putting a >bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’.

It’s done all the time. We just don’t hear about it because most people aren’t stupid enough to let someone they love lie like a vegetable for 17 years. Many, many people have living wills advising not to prolong life when there is no hope. Apparently this was her wish. You should be very afraid of a government that wants to take that right away from you. — Bob Mann Before you critisize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you’re a mile away and you have their shoes.

Response:

>Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her >wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one >person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. >If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, >but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict.

An important lesson that everyone should take to heart. Tell everyone your wishes in front of witnesses. Put it in writing as a living will. Remove all doubt. In any case, the law has been that the spouse has the final say. As they said on the news here in Canada last night or the night before, if it had been here, this would never have happened because the law is clear. The husband’s wishes would have been upheld in any court in the country. — Bob Mann Before you critisize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you’re a mile away and you have their shoes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> >Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I >> must say): >>> >If and when the decision is made, why bother with >> removing the feeding tube >>> >and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her >> own’ ? Let’s just >>> >get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and >> smother her . Or inject >>> >her with >>> >heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which >> is exactly what >>> >removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it >> over with and not have >>> >it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on >> CNN which could be >>> >used to cover more newsworthy subjects. >>> >Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid >> guilt, as Pontius >>> >Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put >> the blame on the >>> >backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her >> own…she didn’t eat’. >>> >It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case >> of just putting a >>> >bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’. >>> It’s done all the time. We just don’t hear about it >> because most >>> people aren’t stupid enough to let someone they love lie >> like a >>> vegetable for 17 years. >>> Many, many people have living wills advising not to >> prolong life when >>> there is no hope. Apparently this was her wish. >>> You should be very afraid of a government that wants to >> take that >>> right away from you. >> Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her >> wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one >> person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. >> If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, >> but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict. >Agreed.  Impossible to say what she wants.  We can only imagine what this >poor woman has gone through, already having her feeding tube removed and >replaced in the past.  It’s cruel that she has to die a slow death of >starvation.  If it’s a fact that it is her wish to die, then there should >be a more humane option for her and others like her. > That is a factually untrue > presumption — a person in > a persistent vegetative > state cannot feel pain > (there is no consciousness > and therefore no person in > the usual sense of the > word "in there") and is > already unconscious, the > death of the body (which > is by dehydration, not > "starvation") is entirely > humane and relatively > rapid according to every > expert on the subject. > Iow, there is no "she" to > experience the removal or > insertion of feeding > tubes — her cerebral > cortex is dead, that part > of the skull is full of > undifferentiated spinal > fluid and necrotic tissue > afaik. > [snip]

This sounds pretty accurate – but it still raises some questions.  If there’s no "she" in there, then it’s difficult to argue that removing the tube is murder – but it’s also difficult to argue that we’re putting "her" through any sort of pain or suffering by keeping her fed. It would be unkind (and unnecessary) to keep any living creature – even a laboratory frog (which also doesn’t have much of a cerebral cortex, if I remember correctly from high school)  - in that kind of suspended animation, and it would also be unkind to gradually starve the creature, unless were pretty certain that it wasn’t feeling anything anyway. So maybe this really IS all about "closure" for the family.  And certainly the family that SHE chose (i.e. her husband) has precedence here.  At least, that’s what the law found until Congress got into the business of legislating for individual families.  I think it has to come back to the idea that in matters like this, it’s the spouse who has the right (and responsibility) to make the moral choice.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): > If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing the feeding tube > and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just > get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother her . Or inject > her with > heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which is exactly what > removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it over with and not have > it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on CNN which could be > used to cover more newsworthy subjects. > Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid guilt, as Pontius > Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put the blame on the > backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her own…she didn’t eat’. > It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case of just putting a > bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’.

Looks like a job for "Nurse Polfus"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >courageously avow: >>Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her >>wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one >>person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. >>If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, >>but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict. >An important lesson that everyone should take to heart. >Tell everyone your wishes in front of witnesses. >Put it in writing as a living will. >Remove all doubt. >In any case, the law has been that the spouse has the final say. >As they said on the news here in Canada last night or the night >before, if it had been here, this would never have happened because >the law is clear. The husband’s wishes would have been upheld in any >court in the country. >You have to remember that when you refer to Canada you are referring >to a democracy that is actually run by the citizens.  I don’t know >what you call that bullshit the US has.

There are many here who would disagree but in both countries you get what you elect. They made no secret about how they felt on certain issues. I don’t think it’s right but it’s up to the American people to let their representatives knbow how they feel. If that’s the type of government that they want, so be it. — Bob Mann Before you critisize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you’re a mile away and you have their shoes.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): > If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing the feeding tube > and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just > get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother her . Or inject > her with > heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which is exactly what > removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it over with and not have > it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on CNN which could be > used to cover more newsworthy subjects. > Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid guilt, as Pontius > Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put the blame on the > backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her

own…she didn’t eat’. > It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case of just putting a > bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’.

Failing to keep someone alive, regardless of their ability to keep themselves alive, is not always the same thing as "murder".  Not saying that I agree with removing the feeding tube, but murder is a specific offense and I’m not sure that you can prove all of the elements of that offense in this case.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I > must say): > >If and when the decision is made, why bother with > removing the feeding tube > >and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her > own’ ? Let’s just > >get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and > smother her . Or inject > >her with > >heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which > is exactly what > >removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it > over with and not have > >it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on > CNN which could be > >used to cover more newsworthy subjects. > >Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid > guilt, as Pontius > >Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put > the blame on the > >backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her > own…she didn’t eat’. > >It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case > of just putting a > >bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’. > It’s done all the time. We just don’t hear about it > because most > people aren’t stupid enough to let someone they love lie > like a > vegetable for 17 years. > Many, many people have living wills advising not to > prolong life when > there is no hope. Apparently this was her wish. > You should be very afraid of a government that wants to > take that > right away from you. > Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her > wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one > person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. > If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, > but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict.

Agreed.  Impossible to say what she wants.  We can only imagine what this poor woman has gone through, already having her feeding tube removed and replaced in the past.  It’s cruel that she has to die a slow death of starvation.  If it’s a fact that it is her wish to die, then there should be a more humane option for her and others like her. Medical science can do wondrous things and keep people ‘alive’ under seemingly impossible circumstances.  But what quality of life and at what cost?  In years past, many such cases would be moot because the medical knowledge wasn’t there to help (or interfere, depending on your viewpoint). On the other hand, even if a person creates a living will, all that does is relieve others of the need for a decision or litigation and guilt.  What if the patient in these cases perhaps has had a change of heart but sadly can’t communicate their wishes at the time?  Then they’re at the mercy of a decision they made when they really couldn’t know what it might be like for them if something like this has happened. There’s no easy answer here.  It’s sad for her and her family that they have to go through this.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I > must say): >> >If and when the decision is made, why bother with > removing the feeding tube >> >and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her > own’ ? Let’s just >> >get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and > smother her . Or inject >> >her with >> >heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which > is exactly what >> >removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it > over with and not have >> >it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on > CNN which could be >> >used to cover more newsworthy subjects. >> >Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid > guilt, as Pontius >> >Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put > the blame on the >> >backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her > own…she didn’t eat’. >> >It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case > of just putting a >> >bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’. >> It’s done all the time. We just don’t hear about it > because most >> people aren’t stupid enough to let someone they love lie > like a >> vegetable for 17 years. >> Many, many people have living wills advising not to > prolong life when >> there is no hope. Apparently this was her wish. >> You should be very afraid of a government that wants to > take that >> right away from you. > Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her > wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one > person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. > If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, > but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict. >Agreed.  Impossible to say what she wants.  We can only imagine what this >poor woman has gone through, already having her feeding tube removed and >replaced in the past.  It’s cruel that she has to die a slow death of >starvation.  If it’s a fact that it is her wish to die, then there should >be a more humane option for her and others like her.

That is a factually untrue presumption — a person in a persistent vegetative state cannot feel pain (there is no consciousness and therefore no person in the usual sense of the word "in there") and is already unconscious, the death of the body (which is by dehydration, not "starvation") is entirely humane and relatively rapid according to every expert on the subject.   Iow, there is no "she" to experience the removal or insertion of feeding tubes — her cerebral cortex is dead, that part of the skull is full of undifferentiated spinal fluid and necrotic tissue afaik. [snip]        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> >Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): >If and when the decision is made, why bother with

removing the feeding tube >and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just >get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and

smother her . Or inject >her with >heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which is exactly what >removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it

over with and not have >it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on CNN which could be >used to cover more newsworthy subjects. >Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid guilt, as Pontius >Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put the blame on the >backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her

own…she didn’t eat’. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case of just putting a >bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’. > It’s done all the time. We just don’t hear about it because most > people aren’t stupid enough to let someone they love lie like a > vegetable for 17 years. > Many, many people have living wills advising not to prolong life when > there is no hope. Apparently this was her wish. > You should be very afraid of a government that wants to take that > right away from you.

Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict.

Response:

Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing the feeding tube and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother her . Or inject her with heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which is exactly what removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it over with and not have it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on CNN which could be used to cover more newsworthy subjects. Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid guilt, as Pontius Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put the blame on the backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her own…she didn’t eat’. It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case of just putting a bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> >Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I >>> must say): >>>> >If and when the decision is made, why bother with >>> removing the feeding tube >>>> >and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her >>> own’ ? Let’s just >>>> >get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and >>> smother her . Or inject >>>> >her with >>>> >heart stopping drugs. If we’re going to murder her, which >>> is exactly what >>>> >removing her feeding tube is doing, let’s just get it >>> over with and not have >>>> >it drag out for a week or two, tieing up valuable time on >>> CNN which could be >>>> >used to cover more newsworthy subjects. >>>> >Simply removing the feeding tube would allow us to avoid >>> guilt, as Pontius >>>> >Pilate washed his hands in the matter of Jesus and put >>> the blame on the >>>> >backs of the Jewish people; ‘well, she died on her >>> own…she didn’t eat’. >>>> >It’s not like WE would be murdering her, as in the case >>> of just putting a >>>> >bullet in her head and putting her out of her ‘misery’. >>>> It’s done all the time. We just don’t hear about it >>> because most >>>> people aren’t stupid enough to let someone they love lie >>> like a >>>> vegetable for 17 years. >>>> Many, many people have living wills advising not to >>> prolong life when >>>> there is no hope. Apparently this was her wish. >>>> You should be very afraid of a government that wants to >>> take that >>>> right away from you. >>> Why don’t you remove all doubt and cite a source for "her >>> wish".  Is it based on the uncorroborated word of one >>> person?  If so, that’s hardly considered evidentiary fact. >>> If she had a living will then this would be a moot issue, >>> but she doesn’t.  Herein lies the source of the conflict. >>Agreed.  Impossible to say what she wants.  We can only imagine what this >>poor woman has gone through, already having her feeding tube removed and >>replaced in the past.  It’s cruel that she has to die a slow death of >>starvation.  If it’s a fact that it is her wish to die, then there should >>be a more humane option for her and others like her. > That is a factually untrue > presumption — a person in > a persistent vegetative > state cannot feel pain > (there is no consciousness > and therefore no person in > the usual sense of the > word "in there") and is > already unconscious, the > death of the body (which > is by dehydration, not > "starvation") is entirely > humane and relatively > rapid according to every > expert on the subject. > Iow, there is no "she" to > experience the removal or > insertion of feeding > tubes — her cerebral > cortex is dead, that part > of the skull is full of > undifferentiated spinal > fluid and necrotic tissue > afaik. > [snip] >This sounds pretty accurate – but it still raises some questions.  If >there’s no "she" in there, then it’s difficult to argue that removing the >tube is murder – but it’s also difficult to argue that we’re putting "her" >through any sort of pain or suffering by keeping her fed.

I’ve never argued that — the ones suffering are her husband (who the righty media is trying to turn into Scott Peterson or worse) and the very family members trying to wish and pray her back into the human race. The law makes the husband her legal guardian and the custodian of her wishes — at this point something like ten judges agree that she didn’t want her fleshly husk preserved though still more years of tube feeding in the futile hope of a miracle. >It would be unkind (and unnecessary) to keep any living creature – even a >laboratory frog (which also doesn’t have much of a cerebral cortex, if I >remember correctly from high school)  - in that kind of suspended animation, >and it would also be unkind to gradually starve the creature, unless were >pretty certain that it wasn’t feeling anything anyway.

Removing the feeding tube would bring on rather rapid dehydration, not gradual starvation — and the medics are quite sure isn’t capable of feeling anything in the human or even higher mammal sense of the the term, and that includes pain, thirst, or hunger. >So maybe this really IS all about "closure" for the family.  And certainly >the family that SHE chose (i.e. her husband) has precedence here.  

Bullseye.  Bingo.  Home run. >At least, >that’s what the law found until Congress got into the business of >legislating for individual families.  

That will undoubtedly be struck down because it’s a clear separation of powers violation. >I think it has to come back to the >idea that in matters like this, it’s the spouse who has the right (and >responsibility) to make the moral choice.

Absolutely.  He’s her legal guardian.  He has a wish to honor and a promise to keep, and he’s doing that at great personal cost.        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

… > Moot point, if her caretaker was Polfus.

Who woke CarlGinger?  Damn that crossposting… __ Steve .

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> You have to remember that when you refer to Canada you are referring > to a democracy that is actually run by the citizens.  I don’t know > what you call that bullshit the US has.

That was a good one.

Response:

> Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): > If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing the feeding > tube > and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just > get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother her . Or inject > her with heart stopping drugs.

I totally agree. With the advances in medicine (which will never be able to cure everything) a lot of people (including myself) are living a lot longer in horrible conditions than in any time in history. I think euthanasia in certain is the only humane thing to do.

Response:

[] [] >An important lesson that everyone should take to heart. [] >Tell everyone your wishes in front of witnesses. [] >Put it in writing as a living will. [] >Remove all doubt. [] >In any case, the law has been that the spouse has the final say. [] >As they said on the news here in Canada last night or the night [] >before, if it had been here, this would never have happened because [] >the law is clear. The husband’s wishes would have been upheld in any [] >court in the country. [] []      Agreed 1000%!!!! Me too, and I came to that conclusion only after much doubt and research into the matter. Every page led me closer to the same conclusion, this should have been over long ago. I feel sorry for the parents, but I do not commiserate with them. Chris —- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool  than to speak out and remove all doubt"                             –Abraham Lincoln [These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Devil’s Advocate speaking here (rather sarcastically, I must say): > If and when the decision is made, why bother with removing the feeding > tube > and letting Terry Shaivo slowly starve to death ‘on her own’ ? Let’s just > get right to it, cover her face with a pillow, and smother her . Or inject > her with heart stopping drugs. > I totally agree. With the advances in medicine (which will never be able to > cure everything) a lot of people (including myself) are living a lot longer > in horrible conditions than in any time in history. I think euthanasia in > certain is the only humane thing to do.

Have you seen the old movie " Soylent Green " ?

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> Have you seen the old movie " Soylent Green " ?

No. But I know the premise and I’d like to.

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> Have you seen the old movie " Soylent Green " ? > No. But I know the premise and I’d like to.

They make Soylent Green from people…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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> > Have you seen the old movie " Soylent Green " ? > No. But I know the premise and I’d like to. > They make Soylent Green from people……

That’s…  peeeeeeeeppppppuuuuuuuuullllll!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Have you seen the old movie " Soylent Green " ? > > No. But I know the premise and I’d like to. > They make Soylent Green from people…… > That’s…  peeeeeeeeppppppuuuuuuuuullllll!

If you haven’t seen Moses in Soylent Green then you’re missing some great parody moments in South Park… the turkey episode has one (the chamber of death). I forget which ep has Randy Marsh doing the above ‘made from peeeeppuuuulllll!!!!’ scream. __ Steve .

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[] [] > They make Soylent Green from people…… [] [] Aww damn, you spoiled it for me. Shit… Hey, and that Titanic movie? The ship sinks. —- "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool  than to speak out and remove all doubt"                             –Abraham Lincoln [These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]

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> [] > [] > They make Soylent Green from people…… > [] > [] Aww damn, you spoiled it for me. Shit… > Hey, and that Titanic movie? The ship sinks.

I hear they’re working on a sequel.

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> I hear they’re working on a sequel.

"Privitizing Private Ryan?" — a d i d a s   i n   h e a t politics, multitracking, digital video http://jprestonian.modblog.com/

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> [] > [] > They make Soylent Green from people…… > [] > [] Aww damn, you spoiled it for me. Shit… > Hey, and that Titanic movie? The ship sinks.

They just want you to think that. Lay a foil of the Titanic’s hull over a foil of the Bismarcks’s hull – identical. And wasn’t Prescott Bush somehow involved? > —- > "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool >  than to speak out and remove all doubt" >                             –Abraham Lincoln > [These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]

– Les Cargill

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Question:

Rallies of the willing, or the campaign supporters are all that Bush chooses to admit. The Cons don’t let facts, reality or understanding get in the way of their opinions.  U.S. Shrugs at Pro-Syria Rally in Beirut (AFP) – The White House shrugged off a mass pro-Syria rally in Beirut led by the powerful Shiite movement Hezbollah and insisted Damascus must end its presence in Lebanon "as quickly as possible." "Syria needs to get out of Lebanon. Syria needs to withdraw completely and as quickly as possible," spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters. In the past, Washington has said Damascus must withdraw its roughly 14,000 troops and its intelligence presence from Lebanon "immediately." http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050308/pl_afp/lebanons…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :Rallies of the willing, or the campaign supporters are all that Bush > chooses > :to admit. The Cons don’t let facts, reality or understanding get in the > way > :o f their opinions. > : > : > : U.S. Shrugs at Pro-Syria Rally in Beirut > : > :( AFP) – The White House shrugged off a mass pro-Syria rally in Beirut led > by > :the powerful Shiite movement Hezbollah and insisted Damascus must end its > :presence in Lebanon "as quickly as possible." "Syria needs to get out of > :Lebanon. Syria needs to withdraw completely and as quickly as possible," > :spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters. In the past, Washington has > said > :D amascus must withdraw its roughly 14,000 troops and its intelligence > :presence from Lebanon "immediately." > : > :http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050308/pl_afp/lebanons… > : > : > the shiite minority in lebanon is very well organized and supported by > syria and iran, both with money, manpower, and weapons.  can anyone > say hezbollah? the non- or anti-syrian majority are controlled by the > syrian forces. so there is both less and more here than appears in the > american press. debka gives much more useful information about the > situation. > — > getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence > – jules feifer > to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address

And we need to allow for minority representation. We can’t impose "our people" successfully. We must live and work together if there is ever going to be any degree of safety, security and peace. Hizbollah exists as it is, because we have been deaf, or at best one-sided. Hezbollah would lose most support for military action if they felt there was hope for them by peaceful means. Easy? No. Necessary? Yes.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: >:Things change according to circumstance. Remember that >:Isreal was founded by  terrorists. >: >: > not true. the founding group associated with haganah and the > jewish agency  were not terrorists, there were  two other. > much smaller groups, irgun and the stern gang  which used > terrorist methods. they were suppressed by the main > community as soon as it achieved power. i had an > acquaintance who had been in the stern gang. he was unable > to return to israel before abou 1990, since he still was a > wanted criminal there.

Would you care to discuss Yitzhak Shamir according to  http://www.israel.org/MFA/Facts%20About%20Israel/State/Yitzhak% 20Shamir the Prime Minister and former Mossad official, was a member of both Irgun and Stern. So by your definitions Israel was run by terrorists. Perhaps your friend was barred from Israel much like Trotsky was barred from Russia. A falling out between terrorists. — note that Shamir left office about the time you said your friend was finally allowed back.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : > :> :Rallies of the willing, or the campaign supporters are all that Bush > :> chooses > :> :to admit. The Cons don’t let facts, reality or understanding get in > the > :> way > :> :o f their opinions. > :> : > :> : > :> : U.S. Shrugs at Pro-Syria Rally in Beirut > :> : > :> :( AFP) – The White House shrugged off a mass pro-Syria rally in Beirut > led > :> by > :> :the powerful Shiite movement Hezbollah and insisted Damascus must end > its > :> :presence in Lebanon "as quickly as possible." "Syria needs to get out > of > :> :Lebanon. Syria needs to withdraw completely and as quickly as > possible," > :> :spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters. In the past, Washington has > :> said > :> :D amascus must withdraw its roughly 14,000 troops and its intelligence > :> :presence from Lebanon "immediately." > :> : > :> > ::http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050308/pl_afp/lebanons… > :> : > :> : > :> the shiite minority in lebanon is very well organized and supported by > :> syria and iran, both with money, manpower, and weapons.  can anyone > :> say hezbollah? the non- or anti-syrian majority are controlled by the > :> syrian forces. so there is both less and more here than appears in the > :> american press. debka gives much more useful information about the > :> situation. > :> > :> — > :> getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence > :> – jules feifer > :> to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address > : > :And we need to allow for minority representation. We can’t impose "our > :people" successfully. We must live and work together if there is ever > going > :to be any degree of safety, security and peace. Hizbollah exists as it > is, > :because we have been deaf, or at best one-sided. Hezbollah would lose > most > :support for military action if they felt there was hope for them by > peaceful > :means. Easy? No. Necessary? Yes. > ^^^^^ > unfortunately for your position is the fact that it is the existence > of israel which hezbollah is against. > — > getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence > – jules feifer > to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address

Things change according to circumstance. Remember that Isreal was founded by terrorists.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : > :> : > :> :> :Rallies of the willing, or the campaign supporters are all that > Bush > :> :> chooses > :> :> :to admit. The Cons don’t let facts, reality or understanding get in > :> the > :> :> way > :> :> :o f their opinions. > :> :> : > :> :> : > :> :> : U.S. Shrugs at Pro-Syria Rally in Beirut > :> :> : > :> :> :( AFP) – The White House shrugged off a mass pro-Syria rally in > Beirut > :> led > :> :> by > :> :> :the powerful Shiite movement Hezbollah and insisted Damascus must > end > :> its > :> :> :presence in Lebanon "as quickly as possible." "Syria needs to get > out > :> of > :> :> :Lebanon. Syria needs to withdraw completely and as quickly as > :> possible," > :> :> :spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters. In the past, Washington > has > :> :> said > :> :> :D amascus must withdraw its roughly 14,000 troops and its > intelligence > :> :> :presence from Lebanon "immediately." > :> :> : > :> :> > :> > :::http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050308/pl_afp/lebanons… > :> :> : > :> :> : > :> :> the shiite minority in lebanon is very well organized and supported > by > :> :> syria and iran, both with money, manpower, and weapons.  can anyone > :> :> say hezbollah? the non- or anti-syrian majority are controlled by > the > :> :> syrian forces. so there is both less and more here than appears in > the > :> :> american press. debka gives much more useful information about the > :> :> situation. > :> :> > :> :> — > :> :> getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence > :> :> – jules feifer > :> :> to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address > :> : > :> :And we need to allow for minority representation. We can’t impose "our > :> :people" successfully. We must live and work together if there is ever > :> going > :> :to be any degree of safety, security and peace. Hizbollah exists as it > :> is, > :> :because we have been deaf, or at best one-sided. Hezbollah would lose > :> most > :> :support for military action if they felt there was hope for them by > :> peaceful > :> > :> :means. Easy? No. Necessary? Yes. > :> ^^^^^ > :> > :> unfortunately for your position is the fact that it is the existence > :> of israel which hezbollah is against. > :> > :> — > :> getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence > :> – jules feifer > :> to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address > : > :Things change according to circumstance. Remember that Isreal was founded > by > :terrorists. > : > : > not true. the founding group associated with haganah and the jewish > agency  were not terrorists, there were  two other. much smaller > groups, irgun and the stern gang  which used terrorist methods. they > were suppressed by the main community as soon as it achieved power. i > had an acquaintance who had been in the stern gang. he was unable to > return to israel before abou 1990, since he still was a wanted criminal > there. > — > getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence > – jules feifer > to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address

And Hizbollah (or Hezbollah, never sure which) has representation in government, and are not all murderers. Life is an organic process, as are politics. Sharon was a prime force in creating the settlements, and he will be instrumental in reducing them.

Response:

Are you saying that Syria should not get out of Lebanon?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Rallies of the willing, or the campaign > supporters are all that Bush chooses to admit. > The Cons don’t let facts, reality or > understanding get in the way of their opinions. > U.S. Shrugs at Pro-Syria Rally in Beirut > (AFP) – The White House shrugged off a mass > pro-Syria rally in Beirut led by the powerful > Shiite movement Hezbollah and insisted Damascus > must end its presence in Lebanon "as quickly as > possible." "Syria needs to get out of Lebanon. > Syria needs to withdraw completely and as > quickly as possible," spokesman Scott McClellan > told reporters. In the past, Washington has said > Damascus must withdraw its roughly 14,000 troops > and its intelligence presence from Lebanon > "immediately." > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050308/pl_afp/lebanons…

Response: