About Religion

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Enjoy your resentment, feed it daily, gather "brown stamps", fester and > fume, groom it, keep it alive and well.  Gather evidence. > This is so *very* weird, because it sounds *so* much like what you’ve > demonstrated here yourself, time and time again. You shriek about the evil > minions of Big Tobacco spreading their nefarious tendrils into everyone’s > lives, and how people are defenseless dupes, and castigate anyone who dares > to disagree with your amply demonstrated, absolute NEED to rage against them > and beat your breast and rend your tunic on a highly visible, daily basis. > Then you do a really crappy Viven Leigh impression, and stamp your little > foot and flounce away to lick your wounds and resurface for another round of > "I’m a crusader and a victim and a ministering angel; I’m so misunderstood > and maligned!" Sheer crap. You play this tired old tune on your one-string, > one-fret banjo, and wonder why nobody’s dancing? > You spend plenty of time on Google, gathering evidence of…God knows what. > None of it has made the slightest damned bit of sense — to anyone but you. > But I see the festering and fuming and grooming, and I can imagine the > rubbing of hands and can almost hear the manic cackling that must accompany > it all. > YOU, however, make a goddam career of showing up here and flagellating > yourself into a frenzy every several months. A few people seem to like > you–God knows why. A few people obviously loathe you–and it’s readily > apparent to me why that is. I used to laugh at you. You’re a silly, > impotent, angry woman with an axe to grind, and I wouldn’t possibly presume > to take you seriously any more, except I’ve seen how sneaky and snotty you > can get. Pathetic.

Jef, you should consider writing ~ if you don’t already.  You know~ for money… I guess I am part of the posse now… I think that is a good thing. With hope and heart, Kathleen

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>very interestinck.

Large chuckle! Craig Watts 5 ‘ems

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Man did he write some stuff. . .check it out. . . .I just question this little bit. . . . >. . .  You’re a silly, > impotent, angry woman . . . .

Do we have any proof of it’s actual sex? Just curious. Alan53 (probably should’ve not come online today

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very interestinck.

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I hadn’t remembered that Linda had originally been a Daredevil when she mentioned it during one of our anniversaries.  35 of us quit on March 15, 1996, but only a few of us have continued to be smober our 6+ years. Many requit and have become members of other groups. Linda, I was surprised to see you relaim these quit groups as some sort of badge of honor. Joyce, I love your description of Roadkill’s only true claim to fame: > Faithful poster of anti-tobacco company boilerplate.  Faithful destroyer of > anyone who dares to disagree.  Faithful troll

DDJacque OOF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->…..and faithful supporter for 4+ years of this group. . > RK, I didn’t know that you were a member of the Daredevils. You mean > DDJacque? > DDSteve?  I never saw you put a DD before your name.  I think they quit long > before 1998.  How could you be a member of 3 quit groups?  Maybe you were and > had a relapse or two or three.  That’s okay.  Most of us have tried and tried > and tried.  But please don’t make it seem as if you are some kind of an NG > hero. > Yes, you have been here for 4+ years.  So have I.  I have yet to see you post > a > sincerely supportive personal post to anyone. > I have seen you attack, and attack, and attack.  It seems to be what you do > best.  Does it help you to stay quit?   > I pity you. > Joyce VOF (4 years 9 months 3 days without a smoke)

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>Called" by some disturbed individual >calling themselves Elflet. >Some sick bitch >by the sounds of it. >bobf >2y

oops I was gonna tell y9u who Elflet is biut I think you figgered it out already..

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>This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything, and why it was posted I >don’t know.

Relax.  It’s just information.  You’re all about being informed, right?  You said this the other day: "But I get this strange sense that a person should be ashamed or at least be silent, about getting informed. Which of course, makes no sense." And I agree! Take what you need and leave the rest.  Anyone who isn’t prone to act like a troll really has nothing to fear from a post like this, anyway. Hugs, elle

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"RK" wrote > ….and plenty of people have observed a silly clique in action…….

Hmmm; not me. I’ve never seen this alleged clique, or mob, or gang, or posse. I have only seen people who will stand up and not take any crap from those who refer to them by these terms. Good sort of a group, I think. Not at all silly. They’ve demonstrateed themselves to be bright, witty, quick, literate — a fun bunch. They all spell well and compose sentences with a beginning, middle and end. The subject, predicate and object are in harmonious flow. You’d do well to take notes. Or turn on your spell-checker. If they’d ask me to join, I might seriously consider it. > Enjoy your resentment, feed it daily, gather "brown stamps", fester and > fume, groom it, keep it alive and well.  Gather evidence.

This is so *very* weird, because it sounds *so* much like what you’ve demonstrated here yourself, time and time again. You shriek about the evil minions of Big Tobacco spreading their nefarious tendrils into everyone’s lives, and how people are defenseless dupes, and castigate anyone who dares to disagree with your amply demonstrated, absolute NEED to rage against them and beat your breast and rend your tunic on a highly visible, daily basis. Then you do a really crappy Viven Leigh impression, and stamp your little foot and flounce away to lick your wounds and resurface for another round of "I’m a crusader and a victim and a ministering angel; I’m so misunderstood and maligned!" Sheer crap. You play this tired old tune on your one-string, one-fret banjo, and wonder why nobody’s dancing? Jesus Christ! EVERYBODY SEES THROUGH YOU, LADY. Sigh… You spend plenty of time on Google, gathering evidence of…God knows what. None of it has made the slightest damned bit of sense — to anyone but you. But I see the festering and fuming and grooming, and I can imagine the rubbing of hands and can almost hear the manic cackling that must accompany it all. I don’t feed resentment; I have none. I accept responsibility for my own act ions and the choices I make, and therefore do not find it necessary to misplace a load of frenzied, foaming anger on another individual or institution. That doesn’t help me–or anyone, really. It’s a completely useless tool which doesn’t belong in the arsenal of anyone with any conscience, responsibility or guts. > But mostly, enjoy your resentment.  I’m sure you’ll have plenty in your > lifetime. After all, resentments are another name for procrastinatin.

(sic) I’m actually remarkably resentment-free. I used to be angry that I wasn’t more attractive or an absolute killer on the dance floor, but I got over it. I used to be pissed at myself for being a smelly, wheezing, gray-faced addict–but I kicked the habit and have been feeling pretty damn good for over 2 and a half years. How the hell would it help me to resent anyone for that? Would harboring a grudge against a tobacco company have speeded my recovery? I doubt it. Would proselytizing and spewing my political rhetoric amidst a group of shaky quitters have helped me achieve DOF any sooner, or enhanced the quality of my life along the way? I sure as hell don’t see how. Those would be the actions of a demented, narcissistic obsessed person. I think that every day someone spends feeding anger and resentment and nurturing grievances, letting discord fester in their soul, leads to the sort of procrastination that manifests itself in their delay in becoming a well-adjusted human being. God knows we’ve seen ample proof of THAT here… Every now and then your own psychosis becomes so florid and so pronounced that one can measure it by the way your spelling, grammar and syntax just go straight to hell. You are barely able to string words together to make coherent sentences. The crap piles up to the point that you begin attacking people, and when you turn it on me, sister, then by God I’m going to say something. There are only a couple of people in this place that I’ve ever found abhorrent enough to take to task–and I’ve mostly just put the anger those exchanges generated out of my system. I said my piece and moved on. I bear no one any ill will. YOU, however, make a goddam career of showing up here and flagellating yourself into a frenzy every several months. A few people seem to like you–God knows why. A few people obviously loathe you–and it’s readily apparent to me why that is. I used to laugh at you. You’re a silly, impotent, angry woman with an axe to grind, and I wouldn’t possibly presume to take you seriously any more, except I’ve seen how sneaky and snotty you can get. Pathetic. > Meanwhile, I hope you’ll excuse me, I value my time.

Uh-huh. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

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Careful, Bob.  I checked out alt.support.herpes a few weeks ago and elflet was saying some pretty nasty stuff.  Claiming that nobody in the group’s identity was safe and that the long term supporters were there only to listen to people talk about their sex lives or were sock puppets for each other.  The older posts looked pretty supportive, but the newer threads were all about hostility and intimidation – mostly initiated by this Elflet.  I checked out the group today – it’s virtually empty. If this Elflet can’t get enough attention there, and is cross-posting here, it may try to start insulting this group and trying to scare people away using hostility and intimidation, like it did in the herpes group.  Trolls live off of attention.  I don’t want to see AS3 going the way the herpes support group seems to have gone. Let’s not try to say anything that encourages this troll.   Diane M.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything, > No, I don’t think it is. > We had a post in here a few days ago, totally out of the blue and > without provocation, deliberately cross-posed to satisfy a > sickness-attention disorder <basically well-fucked in the head> > entitled "Mike Soja Convention Called" by some disturbed individual > calling themselves Elflet. > They never did publically acknowledge who they were. Some sick bitch > by the sounds of it. > I think that’s what he was referring to. > Anyway, have a peaceful weekend. > bobf > 2y

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> This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything, and why it was posted I > don’t know….  I suppose it would seem ridiculous for you to simply say, > "…is a person I don’t like, so I don’t want you to like them, either." > ……so you put the label of "troll" on them!  Sad.  For that is ALL this > is. A nursed grudge against a long-time poster, and that label is trying to > be legitimatized by "politicking" new arrivals..  Sad, sad, sad, and unfair > to all. > Roadkill > member of the "RatPack", "April Fools", and "DareDevils", > last puff, May 10, 1998. > …..and faithful supporter for 4+ years of this group.

Sorry m’dear, but you took it way, way beyond that when you started cross-posting to troll groups. By doing that, you moved into the troll group. …pat. 7m — Pat and Ash http://www3.sympatico.ca/patash/ Ash’s ICQ:   152392429 Pat’s ICQ:  153842682

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"RK" wrote > This whole post seems more flame-bait that (sic) anything, and why it was posted I > don’t know….  I suppose it would seem ridiculous for you to simply say, > "…is a person I don’t like, so I don’t want you to like them, either." > ……so you put the label of "troll" on them!  Sad.  For that is ALL this > is. A nursed grudge against a long-time poster, and that label is trying to > be legitimatized by "politicking" new arrivals.. >Sad, sad, sad, and unfair to all.

No–calling names and spreading lies is very easy to do. The purpose of the post was exactly as stated; I’ll simplify it for you: It’s to warn newcomers about the presence of Usenet trolls. They come here and stir up shit, pretend to be one thing (friendly, helpful, supportive), but actually are something else (twisted, bitter, vindictive, with their own warped little agendas). Plenty of people have observed and commented on it–even those with far less than 4+ years. Maybe you haven’t noticed. That’s sad. A troll’s a troll, and people who have never experienced such a thing are bound to be taken aback by it–especially in the supposedly safe environment of a support group. What are you talking about, anyway?

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>…..and faithful supporter for 4+ years of this group.

Faithful poster of anti-tobacco company boilerplate.  Faithful destroyer of anyone who dares to disagree.  Faithful troll. RK, I didn’t know that you were a member of the Daredevils. You mean DDJacque? DDSteve?  I never saw you put a DD before your name.  I think they quit long before 1998.  How could you be a member of 3 quit groups?  Maybe you were and had a relapse or two or three.  That’s okay.  Most of us have tried and tried and tried.  But please don’t make it seem as if you are some kind of an NG hero. Yes, you have been here for 4+ years.  So have I.  I have yet to see you post a sincerely supportive personal post to anyone. I have seen you attack, and attack, and attack.  It seems to be what you do best.  Does it help you to stay quit?   I pity you. Joyce VOF (4 years 9 months 3 days without a smoke)

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<clipped a very substanitial rant> I am new to newsgroups. This is the only one I subscribe to. The information on trolling was much appreciated. It explained alot. > I’m clawing my way back up through a major depression, loss of a job, a life > that’s been shaken to its foundations, and a helluva lotta changes in the > last couple of months;  I find that not accepting any needless crap is > pretty high on my list of "right things to do". Life’s too short, isn’t

it? Yes it is. *you just don’t know the events that have to transpire to get you where your going*  my favorite line from Apollo 13 Take care & Thanks, Amy 1 Month 1 Week 5 Days 21 Hours 32 Minutes 1 Second. 438 cigs. 2 Days 3 Hrs 12 Mins 48 Secs doing other stuff.

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>This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything,

No, I don’t think it is. We had a post in here a few days ago, totally out of the blue and without provocation, deliberately cross-posed to satisfy a sickness-attention disorder <basically well-fucked in the head> entitled "Mike Soja Convention Called" by some disturbed individual calling themselves Elflet. They never did publically acknowledge who they were. Some sick bitch by the sounds of it. I think that’s what he was referring to. Anyway, have a peaceful weekend. bobf 2y

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(Sorry for snipping your wise words,JEF!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Phewww..! It’s just that rudeness and nastiness always upset me and piss me >off. I don’t understand the need for them to be brought into this forum, and >it’s hurtful and frustrating when they are brought into play. I like to >laugh and feel good, and having to wade thru crap like the trolls fling >around is sooooo tiring and emotionally draining. Maybe warning others will >help. >I’m clawing my way back up through a major depression, loss of a job, a life >that’s been shaken to its foundations, and a helluva lotta changes in the >last couple of months;  I find that not accepting any needless crap is >pretty high on my list of "right things to do". Life’s too short, isn’t it? >I haven’t written this much in ages. I need a nap, now. >JEF. >2 yrs., 9 months…

    Well said, JEF. Thanks for caring so much. Hope your nap was peaceful. xxx Cheryl Faith

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IMO…this is as bad as someone "trolling"…and about as annoying. The dumber people think you are, the more suprised they’re going to be when you kill them. Clutch6

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> From time to time a few of us like to post information about trolling, > because > it happens here, and those who are new to the group should be made aware of > it.

Just as a matter of record Jef; Thank You and Elle (and anyone else who does it in the future) for posting this. It is the right thing for a person to know what they should expect, when walking into a strange scenario.  A good person would take the time to warn a stranger about walking down the streets of the Bronx at midnight with 20 dollar bills hanging out of their pockets.  So why not warn someone about potential dangers on the internet ?  Usenet has it’s own set of predators and their followers.  It’s better to be given the choice of accepting a warning or not, then never to have been warned at all.  Thanks for giving us that option. Eddie …Warned, Wiser, and Wilier…

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Seconded.  I think that AS3 gets a lot more people who are totally new to usenet than most groups.  I wish I’d had a few pointers like what Jef posted here – I might have avoided a few embarrassing mistakes.  I wandered in off the street completely unaware of basic usenet policy – and the risks associated with posting.  I’ve learned a lot in 3 years, not the least of which is that usenet is simply a microcosm of the real world – people are people. Some have bad attitudes, and some are supportive.  We just type the words instead of speaking them.   Diane M.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Just as a matter of record Jef; Thank You and Elle (and anyone else > who does it in the future) for posting this. > It is the right thing for a person to know what they should expect, > when walking into a strange scenario.  A good person would take the > time to warn a stranger about walking down the streets of the Bronx at > midnight with 20 dollar bills hanging out of their pockets.  So why > not warn someone about potential dangers on the internet ?  Usenet has > it’s own set of predators and their followers.  It’s better to be > given the choice of accepting a warning or not, then never to have > been warned at all.  Thanks for giving us that option. > Eddie > …Warned, Wiser, and Wilier…

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"Diane M"  wrote > Seconded.  I think that AS3 gets a lot more people who are totally new > to usenet than most groups.  I wish I’d had a few pointers like what > Jef posted here – I might have avoided a few embarrassing mistakes.  I > wandered in off the street completely unaware of basic usenet policy – > and the risks associated with posting….

> Just as a matter of record Jef; Thank You and Elle (and anyone else > who does it in the future) for posting this… > It is the right thing for a person to know what they should expect, > when walking into a strange scenario…. >…It’s better to be given the choice of accepting a warning or not, >  then never to have been warned at all.  Thanks for giving us that

option. Thanks, kiddos. I found myself wondering about a lot of things when I first blew into this place, a month into my quit, with absolutely *no* prior Usenet experience. What a strange new world! I found so many truly kind, generous, open-hearted people who were willing to share their experiences and information, and to help put a newcomer at ease. It was amazing, and humbling. I will always be grateful for some of the things I learned from, and the many kindnesses shown by, the good folks here. At the same time, I witnessed some incredible cruelty here; high-handed, condescending, provocative, snotty attacks on people for no good reason other than to satisfy the stunted ego of the poster. "Wait a minute; everyone’s been so nice here, why is this woman attacking people? Why this anger and rage? Why is this guy insulting everyone and calling them names? What’s the deal? Why this hostility and rancor? People LIKE this? People DEFEND this? I never heard of such crap in my life!" The explanation "It’s Usenet; get used to it…it’s tough love…it’s what he/she does; it’s helpful to people" was hardly sufficient to explain or condone the egregiously nasty behavior displayed. When the ongoing, cyclical, repeated patterns and floridly psychotic nature of the offender(s) was established beyond (my) reasonable doubt, that’s all it took for me to realize they had absolutely nothing to offer me and should be consigned either to my killfile or some remote circle of hell. Or both. I’ve not been bothered since, really. Oh, once in a while some of their crap bleeds thru when someone doesn’t trim messages they reply to–you can’t avoid 100% of it– and if it’s really stupendously wrong, it gets me cranked up enough to say something– but I try like hell not to join in the fray. Killfile the creeps; pass ‘em by; ignore them. They’re beneath contempt and not worth a moment of your precious day. I’d never encountered "trolls" or "trolling" in this manner before. God knows there are enough assholes in real life; one doesn’t need to expend any energy at all to entertain them on a support newsgroup–and yet, here they are, flourishing in an environment where they should be LEAST tolerated. In real life, the way you deal with someone like this is simple: It usually requires saying "HEY! You’re out of line, completely wrong, and making a complete ass of yourself. Can’t you see what a fool you’re being? Why don’t you shut the fuck up?" Now and then it goes beyond this stage, and enters another plateau of contention which sometimes calls for an uppercut, or a good, solid left hook… both having their relative merits. In this online arena, one can’t physically interact with the shithead, and it’s usually impossible to reason or argue with him/her in a civil fashion. It does absolutely no good to engage him/her beyond publicly condemning him/her and expressing an opinion, and just upsets the general climate of the place. To prolong it, to draw it out, is to play into their hands and to create the kind of blood pressure-raising enmity that just drags this place down. People who aren’t accustomed to being roundly shit on or condemned out of hand need to know that it can (and does) happen with alarming regularity. It’s quite a kick in the ass to come here expecting help, guidance, counsel, advice, concern…and get insulted, flamed, questioned on your veracity and integrity, and to witness otherwise sensible people foaming and spitting and ripping each other new assholes. Anybody who doesn’t need the information contained in a simple, informative (albeit opinionated) post may ignore it, of course. Pass it by. No one’s trying to force a point of view on you. Those who are new and perhaps without guile (or much of a clue, yet…)  just *might* find it useful or enlightening. In any event, I think it needed to be said. So Elle did, and I did, and anyone else who’s tired of the sort of crap that passes for exercise or entertainment here from time to time is welcome to pick up the ball and run with it. Phewww..! It’s just that rudeness and nastiness always upset me and piss me off. I don’t understand the need for them to be brought into this forum, and it’s hurtful and frustrating when they are brought into play. I like to laugh and feel good, and having to wade thru crap like the trolls fling around is sooooo tiring and emotionally draining. Maybe warning others will help. I’m clawing my way back up through a major depression, loss of a job, a life that’s been shaken to its foundations, and a helluva lotta changes in the last couple of months;  I find that not accepting any needless crap is pretty high on my list of "right things to do". Life’s too short, isn’t it? I haven’t written this much in ages. I need a nap, now. JEF. 2 yrs., 9 months…

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From time to time a few of us like to post information about trolling, because it happens here, and those who are new to the group should be made aware of it. Briefly, a troll (or troller) is someone who pretends to be a newsgroup participant, but whose real goal is stirring up trouble and attention-seeking. The following URL is one of the best sources I’ve seen about trolling, because it gives information on several types of troll: http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm This page talks about the garden variety (playtime) trolls that are often seen and often described on other websites devoted to trolling, but it also provides a wealth of information on some of the more insidious and destructive forms of trolling that do occur. My own best advice on recognizing trolls would be this:  consider the behavior of a person over time.  Don’t be too quick to assume that someone who is "helpful" has an altruistic agenda. *Watch* how they treat others. Another good source of information about some of the more disruptive dynamics that occur in this group can be found here: http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/related/cyber.htm This particular page talks about "cyberbullying".  One of the most important bits from this page is this: "The objectives of bullies are Power, Control, Domination, Subjugation. They get a kick out of seeing you react. It doesn’t matter how you react, the fact they’ve successful provoked a reaction is, to the bully, a sign that their attempt at control have been successful. After that, it’s a question of wearing you down. The more your try to explain, negotiate, conciliate, etc the more gratification they obtain from your increasingly desperate attempts to communicate with them. Understand that it is not possible to communicate in a mature adult manner with a disordered individual who’s emotionally retarded. The Number One rule for dealing with this type of behaviour is: don’t respond and don’t engage. This is not as easy to do as it sounds. It’s a natural response to want to defend yourself, and to put the person right. However, never argue with a serial bully; it’s not a mature adult discussion, but like dealing with a child or immature teenager; whilst the serial bully may be an adult on the outside, on the inside they are like a child who’s never grown up – and probably never will." The whole Bully Online site is dedicated to bullying in general, and although it’s designed primarily to address bullying in the workplace, there is a great deal of information there regarding how to recognize bullying and what to do when confronted by a bully and all of this you may find useful here.  It’ s worth a read. Finally, this page is from the FAQ of another newsgroup (alt.support.depression).  It was written by a participant in that group named Diane, and I would like to emphasize that this is NOT our Diane.  It’s a very good site, though, relevant nonetheless, and I highly recommend *everyone* read it: http://www.firelily.com/support/depression/trolls.html Complaints Did you know that you can make a complaint to the internet provider of most people who are trolling?  You can! While complaints aren’t always acted upon, when enough participants complain, sometimes action *is* taken.  If you see something in this group which appears as though it may be a violation of an IP’s terms of service, you can (and should) complain by finding the e-mail address listed after the line "X-Complaints-To:" in the header information of the offending post.  Forward the entire post in question, with headers, to that address (which usually contains the word "abuse") with an explanation of why that post is inappropriate. In support groups, there is a larger probability that your complaint will be taken seriously.

Response:

From time to time a few of us like to post information about trolling, because it happens here, and those who are new to the group should be made aware of it. Briefly, a troll (or troller) is someone who pretends to be a newsgroup participant, but whose real goal is stirring up trouble and attention-seeking. The following URL is one of the best sources I’ve seen about trolling, because it gives information on several types of troll: http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm This page talks about the garden variety (playtime) trolls that are often seen and often described on other websites devoted to trolling, but it also provides a wealth of information on some of the more insidious and destructive forms of trolling that do occur. My own best advice on recognizing trolls would be this:  consider the behavior of a person over time.  Don’t be too quick to assume that someone who is "helpful" has an altruistic agenda. *Watch* how they treat others. Another good source of information about some of the more disruptive dynamics that occur in this group can be found here: http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/related/cyber.htm This particular page talks about "cyberbullying".  One of the most important bits from this page is this: "The objectives of bullies are Power, Control, Domination, Subjugation. They get a kick out of seeing you react. It doesn’t matter how you react, the fact they’ve successful provoked a reaction is, to the bully, a sign that their attempt at control have been successful. After that, it’s a question of wearing you down. The more your try to explain, negotiate, conciliate, etc the more gratification they obtain from your increasingly desperate attempts to communicate with them. Understand that it is not possible to communicate in a mature adult manner with a disordered individual who’s emotionally retarded. The Number One rule for dealing with this type of behaviour is: don’t respond and don’t engage. This is not as easy to do as it sounds. It’s a natural response to want to defend yourself, and to put the person right. However, never argue with a serial bully; it’s not a mature adult discussion, but like dealing with a child or immature teenager; whilst the serial bully may be an adult on the outside, on the inside they are like a child who’s never grown up – and probably never will." The whole Bully Online site is dedicated to bullying in general, and although it’s designed primarily to address bullying in the workplace, there is a great deal of information there regarding how to recognize bullying and what to do when confronted by a bully and all of this you may find useful here.  It’ s worth a read. Finally, this page is from the FAQ of another newsgroup (alt.support.depression).  It was written by a participant in that group named Diane, and I would like to emphasize that this is NOT our Diane.  It’s a very good site, though, relevant nonetheless, and I highly recommend *everyone* read it: http://www.firelily.com/support/depression/trolls.html Complaints Did you know that you can make a complaint to the internet provider of most people who are trolling?  You can! While complaints aren’t always acted upon, when enough participants complain, sometimes action *is* taken.  If you see something in this group which appears as though it may be a violation of an IP’s terms of service, you can (and should) complain by finding the e-mail address listed after the line "X-Complaints-To:" in the header information of the offending post.  Forward the entire post in question, with headers, to that address (which usually contains the word "abuse") with an explanation of why that post is inappropriate. In support groups, there is a larger probability that your complaint will be taken seriously.

Response:

IMO…this is as bad as someone "trolling"…and about as annoying. The dumber people think you are, the more suprised they’re going to be when you kill them. Clutch6

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> From time to time a few of us like to post information about trolling, > because > it happens here, and those who are new to the group should be made aware of > it.

Just as a matter of record Jef; Thank You and Elle (and anyone else who does it in the future) for posting this. It is the right thing for a person to know what they should expect, when walking into a strange scenario.  A good person would take the time to warn a stranger about walking down the streets of the Bronx at midnight with 20 dollar bills hanging out of their pockets.  So why not warn someone about potential dangers on the internet ?  Usenet has it’s own set of predators and their followers.  It’s better to be given the choice of accepting a warning or not, then never to have been warned at all.  Thanks for giving us that option. Eddie …Warned, Wiser, and Wilier…

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Seconded.  I think that AS3 gets a lot more people who are totally new to usenet than most groups.  I wish I’d had a few pointers like what Jef posted here – I might have avoided a few embarrassing mistakes.  I wandered in off the street completely unaware of basic usenet policy – and the risks associated with posting.  I’ve learned a lot in 3 years, not the least of which is that usenet is simply a microcosm of the real world – people are people. Some have bad attitudes, and some are supportive.  We just type the words instead of speaking them.   Diane M.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Just as a matter of record Jef; Thank You and Elle (and anyone else > who does it in the future) for posting this. > It is the right thing for a person to know what they should expect, > when walking into a strange scenario.  A good person would take the > time to warn a stranger about walking down the streets of the Bronx at > midnight with 20 dollar bills hanging out of their pockets.  So why > not warn someone about potential dangers on the internet ?  Usenet has > it’s own set of predators and their followers.  It’s better to be > given the choice of accepting a warning or not, then never to have > been warned at all.  Thanks for giving us that option. > Eddie > …Warned, Wiser, and Wilier…

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"Diane M"  wrote > Seconded.  I think that AS3 gets a lot more people who are totally new > to usenet than most groups.  I wish I’d had a few pointers like what > Jef posted here – I might have avoided a few embarrassing mistakes.  I > wandered in off the street completely unaware of basic usenet policy – > and the risks associated with posting….

> Just as a matter of record Jef; Thank You and Elle (and anyone else > who does it in the future) for posting this… > It is the right thing for a person to know what they should expect, > when walking into a strange scenario…. >…It’s better to be given the choice of accepting a warning or not, >  then never to have been warned at all.  Thanks for giving us that

option. Thanks, kiddos. I found myself wondering about a lot of things when I first blew into this place, a month into my quit, with absolutely *no* prior Usenet experience. What a strange new world! I found so many truly kind, generous, open-hearted people who were willing to share their experiences and information, and to help put a newcomer at ease. It was amazing, and humbling. I will always be grateful for some of the things I learned from, and the many kindnesses shown by, the good folks here. At the same time, I witnessed some incredible cruelty here; high-handed, condescending, provocative, snotty attacks on people for no good reason other than to satisfy the stunted ego of the poster. "Wait a minute; everyone’s been so nice here, why is this woman attacking people? Why this anger and rage? Why is this guy insulting everyone and calling them names? What’s the deal? Why this hostility and rancor? People LIKE this? People DEFEND this? I never heard of such crap in my life!" The explanation "It’s Usenet; get used to it…it’s tough love…it’s what he/she does; it’s helpful to people" was hardly sufficient to explain or condone the egregiously nasty behavior displayed. When the ongoing, cyclical, repeated patterns and floridly psychotic nature of the offender(s) was established beyond (my) reasonable doubt, that’s all it took for me to realize they had absolutely nothing to offer me and should be consigned either to my killfile or some remote circle of hell. Or both. I’ve not been bothered since, really. Oh, once in a while some of their crap bleeds thru when someone doesn’t trim messages they reply to–you can’t avoid 100% of it– and if it’s really stupendously wrong, it gets me cranked up enough to say something– but I try like hell not to join in the fray. Killfile the creeps; pass ‘em by; ignore them. They’re beneath contempt and not worth a moment of your precious day. I’d never encountered "trolls" or "trolling" in this manner before. God knows there are enough assholes in real life; one doesn’t need to expend any energy at all to entertain them on a support newsgroup–and yet, here they are, flourishing in an environment where they should be LEAST tolerated. In real life, the way you deal with someone like this is simple: It usually requires saying "HEY! You’re out of line, completely wrong, and making a complete ass of yourself. Can’t you see what a fool you’re being? Why don’t you shut the fuck up?" Now and then it goes beyond this stage, and enters another plateau of contention which sometimes calls for an uppercut, or a good, solid left hook… both having their relative merits. In this online arena, one can’t physically interact with the shithead, and it’s usually impossible to reason or argue with him/her in a civil fashion. It does absolutely no good to engage him/her beyond publicly condemning him/her and expressing an opinion, and just upsets the general climate of the place. To prolong it, to draw it out, is to play into their hands and to create the kind of blood pressure-raising enmity that just drags this place down. People who aren’t accustomed to being roundly shit on or condemned out of hand need to know that it can (and does) happen with alarming regularity. It’s quite a kick in the ass to come here expecting help, guidance, counsel, advice, concern…and get insulted, flamed, questioned on your veracity and integrity, and to witness otherwise sensible people foaming and spitting and ripping each other new assholes. Anybody who doesn’t need the information contained in a simple, informative (albeit opinionated) post may ignore it, of course. Pass it by. No one’s trying to force a point of view on you. Those who are new and perhaps without guile (or much of a clue, yet…)  just *might* find it useful or enlightening. In any event, I think it needed to be said. So Elle did, and I did, and anyone else who’s tired of the sort of crap that passes for exercise or entertainment here from time to time is welcome to pick up the ball and run with it. Phewww..! It’s just that rudeness and nastiness always upset me and piss me off. I don’t understand the need for them to be brought into this forum, and it’s hurtful and frustrating when they are brought into play. I like to laugh and feel good, and having to wade thru crap like the trolls fling around is sooooo tiring and emotionally draining. Maybe warning others will help. I’m clawing my way back up through a major depression, loss of a job, a life that’s been shaken to its foundations, and a helluva lotta changes in the last couple of months;  I find that not accepting any needless crap is pretty high on my list of "right things to do". Life’s too short, isn’t it? I haven’t written this much in ages. I need a nap, now. JEF. 2 yrs., 9 months…

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(Sorry for snipping your wise words,JEF!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Phewww..! It’s just that rudeness and nastiness always upset me and piss me >off. I don’t understand the need for them to be brought into this forum, and >it’s hurtful and frustrating when they are brought into play. I like to >laugh and feel good, and having to wade thru crap like the trolls fling >around is sooooo tiring and emotionally draining. Maybe warning others will >help. >I’m clawing my way back up through a major depression, loss of a job, a life >that’s been shaken to its foundations, and a helluva lotta changes in the >last couple of months;  I find that not accepting any needless crap is >pretty high on my list of "right things to do". Life’s too short, isn’t it? >I haven’t written this much in ages. I need a nap, now. >JEF. >2 yrs., 9 months…

    Well said, JEF. Thanks for caring so much. Hope your nap was peaceful. xxx Cheryl Faith

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<clipped a very substanitial rant> I am new to newsgroups. This is the only one I subscribe to. The information on trolling was much appreciated. It explained alot. > I’m clawing my way back up through a major depression, loss of a job, a life > that’s been shaken to its foundations, and a helluva lotta changes in the > last couple of months;  I find that not accepting any needless crap is > pretty high on my list of "right things to do". Life’s too short, isn’t

it? Yes it is. *you just don’t know the events that have to transpire to get you where your going*  my favorite line from Apollo 13 Take care & Thanks, Amy 1 Month 1 Week 5 Days 21 Hours 32 Minutes 1 Second. 438 cigs. 2 Days 3 Hrs 12 Mins 48 Secs doing other stuff.

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>This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything,

No, I don’t think it is. We had a post in here a few days ago, totally out of the blue and without provocation, deliberately cross-posed to satisfy a sickness-attention disorder <basically well-fucked in the head> entitled "Mike Soja Convention Called" by some disturbed individual calling themselves Elflet. They never did publically acknowledge who they were. Some sick bitch by the sounds of it. I think that’s what he was referring to. Anyway, have a peaceful weekend. bobf 2y

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>…..and faithful supporter for 4+ years of this group.

Faithful poster of anti-tobacco company boilerplate.  Faithful destroyer of anyone who dares to disagree.  Faithful troll. RK, I didn’t know that you were a member of the Daredevils. You mean DDJacque? DDSteve?  I never saw you put a DD before your name.  I think they quit long before 1998.  How could you be a member of 3 quit groups?  Maybe you were and had a relapse or two or three.  That’s okay.  Most of us have tried and tried and tried.  But please don’t make it seem as if you are some kind of an NG hero. Yes, you have been here for 4+ years.  So have I.  I have yet to see you post a sincerely supportive personal post to anyone. I have seen you attack, and attack, and attack.  It seems to be what you do best.  Does it help you to stay quit?   I pity you. Joyce VOF (4 years 9 months 3 days without a smoke)

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"RK" wrote > This whole post seems more flame-bait that (sic) anything, and why it was posted I > don’t know….  I suppose it would seem ridiculous for you to simply say, > "…is a person I don’t like, so I don’t want you to like them, either." > ……so you put the label of "troll" on them!  Sad.  For that is ALL this > is. A nursed grudge against a long-time poster, and that label is trying to > be legitimatized by "politicking" new arrivals.. >Sad, sad, sad, and unfair to all.

No–calling names and spreading lies is very easy to do. The purpose of the post was exactly as stated; I’ll simplify it for you: It’s to warn newcomers about the presence of Usenet trolls. They come here and stir up shit, pretend to be one thing (friendly, helpful, supportive), but actually are something else (twisted, bitter, vindictive, with their own warped little agendas). Plenty of people have observed and commented on it–even those with far less than 4+ years. Maybe you haven’t noticed. That’s sad. A troll’s a troll, and people who have never experienced such a thing are bound to be taken aback by it–especially in the supposedly safe environment of a support group. What are you talking about, anyway?

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> This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything, and why it was posted I > don’t know….  I suppose it would seem ridiculous for you to simply say, > "…is a person I don’t like, so I don’t want you to like them, either." > ……so you put the label of "troll" on them!  Sad.  For that is ALL this > is. A nursed grudge against a long-time poster, and that label is trying to > be legitimatized by "politicking" new arrivals..  Sad, sad, sad, and unfair > to all. > Roadkill > member of the "RatPack", "April Fools", and "DareDevils", > last puff, May 10, 1998. > …..and faithful supporter for 4+ years of this group.

Sorry m’dear, but you took it way, way beyond that when you started cross-posting to troll groups. By doing that, you moved into the troll group. …pat. 7m — Pat and Ash http://www3.sympatico.ca/patash/ Ash’s ICQ:   152392429 Pat’s ICQ:  153842682

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Careful, Bob.  I checked out alt.support.herpes a few weeks ago and elflet was saying some pretty nasty stuff.  Claiming that nobody in the group’s identity was safe and that the long term supporters were there only to listen to people talk about their sex lives or were sock puppets for each other.  The older posts looked pretty supportive, but the newer threads were all about hostility and intimidation – mostly initiated by this Elflet.  I checked out the group today – it’s virtually empty. If this Elflet can’t get enough attention there, and is cross-posting here, it may try to start insulting this group and trying to scare people away using hostility and intimidation, like it did in the herpes group.  Trolls live off of attention.  I don’t want to see AS3 going the way the herpes support group seems to have gone. Let’s not try to say anything that encourages this troll.   Diane M.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything, > No, I don’t think it is. > We had a post in here a few days ago, totally out of the blue and > without provocation, deliberately cross-posed to satisfy a > sickness-attention disorder <basically well-fucked in the head> > entitled "Mike Soja Convention Called" by some disturbed individual > calling themselves Elflet. > They never did publically acknowledge who they were. Some sick bitch > by the sounds of it. > I think that’s what he was referring to. > Anyway, have a peaceful weekend. > bobf > 2y

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>Called" by some disturbed individual >calling themselves Elflet. >Some sick bitch >by the sounds of it. >bobf >2y

oops I was gonna tell y9u who Elflet is biut I think you figgered it out already..

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>This whole post seems more flame-bait that anything, and why it was posted I >don’t know.

Relax.  It’s just information.  You’re all about being informed, right?  You said this the other day: "But I get this strange sense that a person should be ashamed or at least be silent, about getting informed. Which of course, makes no sense." And I agree! Take what you need and leave the rest.  Anyone who isn’t prone to act like a troll really has nothing to fear from a post like this, anyway. Hugs, elle

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"RK" wrote > ….and plenty of people have observed a silly clique in action…….

Hmmm; not me. I’ve never seen this alleged clique, or mob, or gang, or posse. I have only seen people who will stand up and not take any crap from those who refer to them by these terms. Good sort of a group, I think. Not at all silly. They’ve demonstrateed themselves to be bright, witty, quick, literate — a fun bunch. They all spell well and compose sentences with a beginning, middle and end. The subject, predicate and object are in harmonious flow. You’d do well to take notes. Or turn on your spell-checker. If they’d ask me to join, I might seriously consider it. > Enjoy your resentment, feed it daily, gather "brown stamps", fester and > fume, groom it, keep it alive and well.  Gather evidence.

This is so *very* weird, because it sounds *so* much like what you’ve demonstrated here yourself, time and time again. You shriek about the evil minions of Big Tobacco spreading their nefarious tendrils into everyone’s lives, and how people are defenseless dupes, and castigate anyone who dares to disagree with your amply demonstrated, absolute NEED to rage against them and beat your breast and rend your tunic on a highly visible, daily basis. Then you do a really crappy Viven Leigh impression, and stamp your little foot and flounce away to lick your wounds and resurface for another round of "I’m a crusader and a victim and a ministering angel; I’m so misunderstood and maligned!" Sheer crap. You play this tired old tune on your one-string, one-fret banjo, and wonder why nobody’s dancing? Jesus Christ! EVERYBODY SEES THROUGH YOU, LADY. Sigh… You spend plenty of time on Google, gathering evidence of…God knows what. None of it has made the slightest damned bit of sense — to anyone but you. But I see the festering and fuming and grooming, and I can imagine the rubbing of hands and can almost hear the manic cackling that must accompany it all. I don’t feed resentment; I have none. I accept responsibility for my own act ions and the choices I make, and therefore do not find it necessary to misplace a load of frenzied, foaming anger on another individual or institution. That doesn’t help me–or anyone, really. It’s a completely useless tool which doesn’t belong in the arsenal of anyone with any conscience, responsibility or guts. > But mostly, enjoy your resentment.  I’m sure you’ll have plenty in your > lifetime. After all, resentments are another name for procrastinatin.

(sic) I’m actually remarkably resentment-free. I used to be angry that I wasn’t more attractive or an absolute killer on the dance floor, but I got over it. I used to be pissed at myself for being a smelly, wheezing, gray-faced addict–but I kicked the habit and have been feeling pretty damn good for over 2 and a half years. How the hell would it help me to resent anyone for that? Would harboring a grudge against a tobacco company have speeded my recovery? I doubt it. Would proselytizing and spewing my political rhetoric amidst a group of shaky quitters have helped me achieve DOF any sooner, or enhanced the quality of my life along the way? I sure as hell don’t see how. Those would be the actions of a demented, narcissistic obsessed person. I think that every day someone spends feeding anger and resentment and nurturing grievances, letting discord fester in their soul, leads to the sort of procrastination that manifests itself in their delay in becoming a well-adjusted human being. God knows we’ve seen ample proof of THAT here… Every now and then your own psychosis becomes so florid and so pronounced that one can measure it by the way your spelling, grammar and syntax just go straight to hell. You are barely able to string words together to make coherent sentences. The crap piles up to the point that you begin attacking people, and when you turn it on me, sister, then by God I’m going to say something. There are only a couple of people in this place that I’ve ever found abhorrent enough to take to task–and I’ve mostly just put the anger those exchanges generated out of my system. I said my piece and moved on. I bear no one any ill will. YOU, however, make a goddam career of showing up here and flagellating yourself into a frenzy every several months. A few people seem to like you–God knows why. A few people obviously loathe you–and it’s readily apparent to me why that is. I used to laugh at you. You’re a silly, impotent, angry woman with an axe to grind, and I wouldn’t possibly presume to take you seriously any more, except I’ve seen how sneaky and snotty you can get. Pathetic. > Meanwhile, I hope you’ll excuse me, I value my time.

Uh-huh. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Enjoy your resentment, feed it daily, gather "brown stamps", fester and > fume, groom it, keep it alive and well.  Gather evidence. > This is so *very* weird, because it sounds *so* much like what you’ve > demonstrated here yourself, time and time again. You shriek about the evil > minions of Big Tobacco spreading their nefarious tendrils into everyone’s > lives, and how people are defenseless dupes, and castigate anyone who dares > to disagree with your amply demonstrated, absolute NEED to rage against them > and beat your breast and rend your tunic on a highly visible, daily basis. > Then you do a really crappy Viven Leigh impression, and stamp your little > foot and flounce away to lick your wounds and resurface for another round of > "I’m a crusader and a victim and a ministering angel; I’m so misunderstood > and maligned!" Sheer crap. You play this tired old tune on your one-string, > one-fret banjo, and wonder why nobody’s dancing? > You spend plenty of time on Google, gathering evidence of…God knows what. > None of it has made the slightest damned bit of sense — to anyone but you. > But I see the festering and fuming and grooming, and I can imagine the > rubbing of hands and can almost hear the manic cackling that must accompany > it all. > YOU, however, make a goddam career of showing up here and flagellating > yourself into a frenzy every several months. A few people seem to like > you–God knows why. A few people obviously loathe you–and it’s readily > apparent to me why that is. I used to laugh at you. You’re a silly, > impotent, angry woman with an axe to grind, and I wouldn’t possibly presume > to take you seriously any more, except I’ve seen how sneaky and snotty you > can get. Pathetic.

Jef, you should consider writing ~ if you don’t already.  You know~ for money… I guess I am part of the posse now… I think that is a good thing. With hope and heart, Kathleen

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very interestinck.

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I hadn’t remembered that Linda had originally been a Daredevil when she mentioned it during one of our anniversaries.  35 of us quit on March 15, 1996, but only a few of us have continued to be smober our 6+ years. Many requit and have become members of other groups. Linda, I was surprised to see you relaim these quit groups as some sort of badge of honor. Joyce, I love your description of Roadkill’s only true claim to fame: > Faithful poster of anti-tobacco company boilerplate.  Faithful destroyer of > anyone who dares to disagree.  Faithful troll

DDJacque OOF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->…..and faithful supporter for 4+ years of this group. . > RK, I didn’t know that you were a member of the Daredevils. You mean > DDJacque? > DDSteve?  I never saw you put a DD before your name.  I think they quit long > before 1998.  How could you be a member of 3 quit groups?  Maybe you were and > had a relapse or two or three.  That’s okay.  Most of us have tried and tried > and tried.  But please don’t make it seem as if you are some kind of an NG > hero. > Yes, you have been here for 4+ years.  So have I.  I have yet to see you post > a > sincerely supportive personal post to anyone. > I have seen you attack, and attack, and attack.  It seems to be what you do > best.  Does it help you to stay quit?   > I pity you. > Joyce VOF (4 years 9 months 3 days without a smoke)

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>very interestinck.

Large chuckle! Craig Watts 5 ‘ems

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Man did he write some stuff. . .check it out. . . .I just question this little bit. . . . >. . .  You’re a silly, > impotent, angry woman . . . .

Do we have any proof of it’s actual sex? Just curious. Alan53 (probably should’ve not come online today

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