New Tax Bill Helps the High End By Neil Irwin (Washington Post) In the debate over the tax bill that Congress passed this week, supporters toasted it as essential to continued economic growth while opponents described it as a boon to the wealthy that the nation can
NSA has massive database of Americans’ phone calls By Leslie Cauley (USA TODAY) The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY. The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans
"Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans." GWB — "Guitarmen, wake up and pluck wire for sound, let ‘em hear you play" – CHARLIE CHRISTIAN 1939
> "Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known > affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the personal > lives of millions of innocent Americans." > GWB > — > "Guitarmen, wake up and pluck wire for sound, let ‘em hear you play" > – CHARLIE CHRISTIAN 1939
no – just the guilty ones, the ones guilty of disagreeing with ME!
> "Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known > affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the personal > lives of millions of innocent Americans."
What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring or surveillance. This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when the cop checks to see what number called what number.
>>"Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known >affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the personal >lives of millions of innocent Americans." > What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring
WHAT??? Collecting every number that you dial out to isn’t "monitoring?" or > surveillance. This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when > the cop checks to see what number called what number.
…and you’re okay with the government logging call records? We’re talking MILLIONS of people. NOT suspects. Probably YOUR records. Thankfully NOT mine. Qwest refused to turn them over! Like I said in another post, somethin’ ain’t right when YOUR phone records are a big enough security risk to warrant logging of every number that you call, but Bin Laden wasn’t a big enough security risk to dedicate ground troops to.
F**in’ A. 1984 and all. — "Guitarmen, wake up and pluck wire for sound, let ‘em hear you play" – CHARLIE CHRISTIAN 1939
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>"Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known >>affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the >>personal lives of millions of innocent Americans." > What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring > WHAT??? Collecting every number that you dial out to isn’t "monitoring?" > or > surveillance. This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV > when the cop checks to see what number called what number. > …and you’re okay with the government logging call records? We’re > talking MILLIONS of people. NOT suspects. Probably YOUR records. > Thankfully NOT mine. Qwest refused to turn them over! > Like I said in another post, somethin’ ain’t right when YOUR phone records > are a big enough security risk to warrant logging of every number that you > call, but Bin Laden wasn’t a big enough security risk to dedicate ground > troops to.
>> "Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known > affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the personal > lives of millions of innocent Americans." >What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring or >surveillance. This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when >the cop checks to see what number called what number.
Enjoying your fascist police state are you. Did anybody ever tell you how cute you look in your GWB brown shirt? Ken Wilson
> WHAT??? Collecting every number that you dial out to isn’t "monitoring?"
No, I prefer to call it "security data mining". Supposedly no laws were broken; it seems legal to find out what numbers you called, but they (purportedly) can not get access to the content of your conversation legally.
> WHAT??? Collecting every number that you dial out to isn’t "monitoring?"
As has been reported, they did NOT save who YOU called, they only saved what number to what number. That way if later they find a Terrorist in Iraq/Afghanistan/Sudan/Somalia/Spain/England/Philippines/Sumatra/India/Paki stan ect has been calling a US number, they can then check to see who else that US number who has been talking to Terrorists number has been calling.
>>WHAT??? Collecting every number that you dial out to isn’t "monitoring?" > As has been reported, they did NOT save who YOU called, they only saved what > number to what number.
Dude! That means they have a list of numbers called out from YOUR phone. If your name doesn’t appear next to it, does that make it okay? > That way if later they find a Terrorist in > Iraq/Afghanistan/Sudan/Somalia/Spain/England/Philippines/Sumatra/India/Paki stan > ect has been calling a US number, they can then check to see who else that > US number who has been talking to Terrorists number has been calling.
Too bad they didn’t put the same effort into catching Bin Laden…
>From Wikipedia, we find out that-
KGB (transliteration of "КГБ") is the Russian-language abbreviation for State Security Committee, (Russian: Комите́т Госуда́рственн 086;й Безопа́сности ; Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti). It goes on to say- >From March 13, 1954 to November 6, 1991 KGB was the umbrella
organization name for the principal Soviet security agency, the principal intelligence agency, and the principal secret police agency. Roughly, the KGB’s operational domain encompassed functions and powers like those exercised by the United States’ Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the counterintelligence (internal security) division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Federal Protective Service, and the Secret Service. With Hayden going from the military to the NSA to the CIA, isn’t that sort of consolidation happening right here and right now? But of course, that’s not the biggest reason. The biggest reason is these wiretapping scandals, of course. Why? Well just look at the KGB’s Seventh Directorate The Seventh Directorate (Surveillance) handled surveillance, providing personnel and technical equipment to follow and monitor the activities of both foreigners and suspect Soviet citizens. Much of this work was centered in the Moscow and Leningrad areas, where tourists, diplomats, foreign students, and members of the Soviet intelligentsia were concentrated. The Al’fa (Alpha) counterterrorist group was subordinated to Seventh Main Directorate. Alpha was involved in many counterterrorist and internal-security missions since its formation in 1974 and was heavily active in special-operations tasks in Afghanistan. Yes, that’s right. You read that correctly. The Soviets spied on their own people and then linked the whole thing to counterterrorism, probably for the same reasons Bush did. Of course, that’s not all the KGB did and I am not suggesting things are this bad now, but tell me this doesn’t all sound eerily familiar. In addition to arrests, psychiatric commitment, and other forms of coercion, the KGB also exercised a preventive function, designed to prevent political crimes and suppress deviant political attitudes. The KGB carried out this function in a variety of ways. For example, when the KGB learned that a Soviet citizen was having contact with foreigners or speaking in a negative fashion about the Soviet regime, it made efforts to set him or her straight by means of a "chat." The KGB also devoted great efforts to political indoctrination and propaganda. At local and regional levels, KGB officials regularly visited factories, schools, collective farms (see Glossary), and Komsomol organizations to deliver talks on political vigilance. National and republic-level KGB officials wrote articles and gave speeches on this theme. Their main message was that the Soviet Union was threatened by the large-scale efforts of Western intelligence agencies to penetrate the country by using cultural, scientific, and tourist exchanges to send in spies. In addition, the KGB claimed that Soviet citizens were barraged by hostile propaganda from the West as part of an effort to undermine the Soviet system. Another important facet of KGB preventive work was censorship of literature and other media, which it exercised at both an informal and a formal level. The KGB censored informally by harassing writers and artists, arranging for their expulsion from professional organizations or from their jobs, and threatening them with prosecution for their unorthodox views. Such forms of intimidation forced many writers and artists to exercise selfcensorship by producing only what they thought would be acceptable. The KGB maintained strong surveillance over the Union of Writers, as well as over the journalists’ and artists’ unions, where KGB representatives occupied top administrative posts. … Another important internal security task of the KGB was to provide the leadership with information about the dissident movement and the political attitudes and opinions of the public as a whole. This task by its very nature gave the KGB influence over policy, particularly because Soviet leaders had no direct contact with dissidents and nonconformists and thus relied on KGB information about motives and foreign connections and on its estimates of numbers and support for various groups. The situation probably changed somewhat after Gorbachev introduced the policy of glasnost’ in early 1987. After that the KGB no longer had a monopoly on information about the country’s political mood because Soviet citizens expressed their views more freely in the press. Nevertheless, the KGB’s information gathering continued to be important because direct criticism of the political system was suppressed. Computers no doubt improved KGB methods of processing information and conducting research. Make sure you read that last part. Just because there appears to be a free press does not mean that there isn’t a totalitarian secret police force at work. Let’s let the people in Washington know that America is not the Soviet Union. America does not need a KGB. NO KGB IN AMERICA! http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/11/163914/943
>> As has been reported, they did NOT save who YOU called, they only saved > what number to what number. > Dude! That means they have a list of numbers called out from YOUR phone. > If your name doesn’t appear next to it, does that make it okay?
With the BILLIONS of calls each month, it is completely impossible for them to be saving YOUR calls. If a Terrorist is caught overseas, I want US Authorities to be able to track their network here. > That way if later they find a Terrorist in > Iraq/Afghanistan/Sudan/Somalia/Spain/England/Philippines/Sumatra/India/Paki stan > ect has been calling a US number, they can then check to see who else > that US number who has been talking to Terrorists number has been > calling. > Too bad they didn’t put the same effort into catching Bin Laden…
They put, and continue to put effort in programs EXACTLY like this to find he and his followers.
> What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring or > surveillance
That’s a lie.
> As has been reported, they did NOT save who YOU called, they only saved what > number to what number
Gee whiz. You sure can’t do any sort of reverse look-up with THAT information, can you… Asshole.
> With the BILLIONS of calls each month, it is completely impossible for them > to be saving YOUR calls
That’s a lie.
> > With the BILLIONS of calls each month, it is completely impossible for them > to be saving YOUR calls > That’s a lie.
and a big lie. Consider for a moment that there are 60 million web sites and they are all crawled by various search engines daily. This information and all of our posts right here are saved by Goggle for 25 years. They are searchable in seconds. Tracking all our phone calls is no biggie. As someone said earlier – finding Ben Laden is apparently a much bigger deal.
>> What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring or > surveillance > That’s a lie.
PROVE IT!
>>> "Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known >> affiliates," Bush said. "We’re not mining or trolling through the >> personal lives of millions of innocent Americans." > What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring > WHAT??? Collecting every number that you dial out to isn’t "monitoring?"
The phone company "collects" that data…. any policeman in the country can ‘monitor’ that data. > or > surveillance. This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV > when the cop checks to see what number called what number. > …and you’re okay with the government logging call records? We’re > talking MILLIONS of people. NOT suspects. Probably YOUR records. > Thankfully NOT mine. Qwest refused to turn them over!
Are you concerned that the govt will find something illegal in your records…??? The "Govt" monitors my income MUCH more closely than my phone calls… and isn’t afraid to make me "prove" my innocence if they get it wrong… Of course, I’m not calling any terrorists either… > Like I said in another post, somethin’ ain’t right when YOUR phone > records are a big enough security risk to warrant logging of every > number that you call, but Bin Laden wasn’t a big enough security risk to > dedicate ground troops to.
If YOU phone a known Al Quieda operative, then your phone records are of interest, court order or not (IMMHO). If you report $400 in AGI on your tax return, you are probably of interest as well. But, you’re right, Clinton SHOULD have dedicated ground troops to whack Bin Laden instead of firing off a couple cruize missiles… he screwed up big time. There, and in Rwanda.
> This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when > the cop checks to see what number called what number.
They come frequently but rarely does it remain still enough to allow for a thorough view. This lucky shot helps and should alleviate some of the questions- if you are of the curious type and logged a few. bk
> >> What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring or >> surveillance > That’s a lie. > PROVE IT!
DYOFR
>> This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when > the cop checks to see what number called what number. >They come frequently but rarely >does it remain still enough to >allow for a thorough view. This lucky >shot helps and should alleviate >some of the questions- if you are >of the curious type and logged a few.
WTF? Chew too much solder? Again?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when >> the cop checks to see what number called what number. >They come frequently but rarely >does it remain still enough to >allow for a thorough view. This lucky >shot helps and should alleviate >some of the questions- if you are >of the curious type and logged a few. > WTF? > Chew too much solder? > Again?
The inability for you to comprehend it is not at all surprising, you’re a dope and a WWE wrasslin’ fan. Professional wrestling. Absolutely un-friggin-believable. The soldering thing is just something that I do on the side. I don’t chew it, rather, I use it as a sort of conductive cement. I make the real money doing something entirely different. Now go make my lunch, bitch. bk
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when > >> the cop checks to see what number called what number. > >They come frequently but rarely > >does it remain still enough to > >allow for a thorough view. This lucky > >shot helps and should alleviate > >some of the questions- if you are > >of the curious type and logged a few. > WTF? > Chew too much solder? > Again? >The inability for you to comprehend it >is not at all surprising, you’re a dope >and a WWE wrasslin’ fan. Professional >wrestling. Absolutely un-friggin-believable. >The soldering thing is just something >that I do on the side. I don’t chew it, >rather, I use it as a sort of conductive >cement. I make the real money doing >something entirely different. >Now go make my lunch, bitch.
My, My. Such hostility. I apologize. It seems that English may not be your first language. Try using fewer words. Your posting is incoherent enough, but lacks the catchy hook of something like: "All your base are belong to us" Perhaps you need better ventilation in your hobby area. You should consider it while waiting for the answer to your question: "Would you like fries with that?" while you are making your "Real Money" — | ^ JOIN THE | /" ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | / TO RID USENET OF | X NATTERING FUCKWITS | /
>> >> What came out today doesn’t say that there was any monitoring or > >> surveillance > > That’s a lie. > PROVE IT! > DYOFR
Your usual response when CAUGHT lying. You would have LOVED to have posted anything factual to prove your claim but you can’t! Too funny Pixie!
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> This has been merely saving the phone records like on TV when >> >> the cop checks to see what number called what number. >> >They come frequently but rarely >> >does it remain still enough to >> >allow for a thorough view. This lucky >> >shot helps and should alleviate >> >some of the questions- if you are >> >of the curious type and logged a few. >> WTF? >> Chew too much solder? >> Again? >The inability for you to comprehend it >is not at all surprising, you’re a dope >and a WWE wrasslin’ fan. Professional >wrestling. Absolutely un-friggin-believable. >The soldering thing is just something >that I do on the side. I don’t chew it, >rather, I use it as a sort of conductive >cement. I make the real money doing >something entirely different. >Now go make my lunch, bitch. > My, My. > Such hostility. > I apologize. > It seems that English may not be your first language. > Try using fewer words. Your posting is incoherent enough, > but lacks the catchy hook of something like: > "All your base are belong to us" > Perhaps you need better ventilation in your hobby area. > You should consider it while waiting for the answer to your question: > "Would you like fries with that?" > while you are making your "Real Money"
Hey wrassler fan, I’d tell you when I stopped paying into social security last year, but I wouldn’t want to make you cry. 
bk
Ginsburg: Congress’ Watchdog Plan ‘Scary’ By GINA HOLLAND (Associated Press) Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said Tuesday that a Republican proposal in Congress to set up a watchdog over the federal courts is a "really scary idea." Ginsburg told a gathering of the American Bar Association that lawyers should stick up for judges when they are criticized by congressional leaders. "My sense now is that the judiciary is under assault in a way that I haven’t seen before," she said. As an example, she mentioned proposals by senior Republicans who want an inspector general to police judges’ acceptance of free trips or their possible financial interests with groups that could appear before them. "It sounds to me very much like the Soviet Union was …. That’s a really scary idea," said Ginsburg, who was put on the court by President Clinton and is one of its liberal members.
AS A SPECIALIST IN the study of propaganda, the University of Dayton’s Don Morlan is especially fond of the film that Moe, Larry and director Jules White all considered their best, the 1940 short "You Nazty Spy." "That was a classic," says Morlan. "The comedy came out satirizing Nazis two years before Pearl Harbor, when America was still trying to stay neutral." In 1941, isolationist senators, including Montana’s Burton Wheeler, were investigating suspected anti-Nazi propaganda by Hollywood. The committee had gone as far as making a list of films with an anti-Nazi bent. (These hearings are little known, because they were canceled on the morning of Monday, Dec. 8, 1941, and the findings were never reported.) In "You Nazty Spy," Moe plays a wallpaper-hanger recruited by the leading businessmen of Moronika to be their puppet dictator. The kingpin Stooge in Hitler drag is uncannily like Adolf; the two wrathful little guys merge into one. Curly’s Goering is also startlingly like the real model, and Larry, besashed and beribboned, has a diplomat’s own spinelessness. Morlan is quick to ascribe the quality of "You Nazty Spy" to Chaplin’s The Great Dictator — released nine months later. Still, "You Nazty Spy" was released in January 1940, months before the German invasion of France and the anti-Nazi turn in American public opinion. White and Howard’s short film missed the radar of the isolationists in the U.S. Senate but not, apparently, through any lack of attention by the U.S. public. According to Morlan, "You Nazty Spy" was a popular short for the Stooges; the film even played in some first-run theaters that usually excluded the trio. The Three Stooges not only got there before anyone else in American comedy, they pegged their man just as well as Chaplin did, perhaps better. Moe understood Hitler’s rage and seediness. "You Nazty Spy" stresses how the F
Sharp Reaction to G.O.P. Plan on Gas Rebate By CARL HULSE and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK (New Yokr Times) The Senate Republican plan to mail $100 checks to voters to ease the burden of high gasoline prices is eliciting more scorn than gratitude from the very people it was intended to help. Aides for several Republican senators reported a surge of calls and e-mail messages from constituents ridiculing the rebate as a paltry and transparent effort to pander to voters before the midterm elections in November. "The conservatives think it is socialist bunk, and the liberals think it is conservative trickery," said Don Stewart, a spokesman for Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, pointing out that the criticism was coming from across the ideological spectrum. Angry constituents have asked, "Do you think we are prostitutes? Do you think you can buy us?" said another Republican senator’s aide, who was granted anonymity to openly discuss the feedback because the senator had supported the plan. Conservative talk radio hosts have been particularly vocal. "What kind of insult is this?" Rush Limbaugh asked on his radio program on Friday. "Instead of buying us off and treating us like we’re a bunch of whores, just solve the problem." In commentary on Fox News Sunday, Brit Hume called the idea "silly." The reaction comes as the rising price of gasoline has put the public in a volatile mood and as polls show that cynicism about Congress is at its highest level since 1994.
"Let them eat cake" — "Guitarmen, wake up and pluck wire for sound, let ‘em hear you play" – CHARLIE CHRISTIAN 1939
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sharp Reaction to G.O.P. Plan on Gas Rebate > By CARL HULSE and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK > (New Yokr Times) > The Senate Republican plan to mail $100 checks to voters to ease the > burden of high gasoline prices is eliciting more scorn than gratitude > from the very people it was intended to help. > Aides for several Republican senators reported a surge of calls and > e-mail messages from constituents ridiculing the rebate as a paltry and > transparent effort to pander to voters before the midterm elections in > November. > "The conservatives think it is socialist bunk, and the liberals think it > is conservative trickery," said Don Stewart, a spokesman for Senator > John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, pointing out that the criticism was > coming from across the ideological spectrum. > Angry constituents have asked, "Do you think we are prostitutes? Do you > think you can buy us?" said another Republican senator’s aide, who was > granted anonymity to openly discuss the feedback because the senator had > supported the plan. > Conservative talk radio hosts have been particularly vocal. "What kind > of insult is this?" Rush Limbaugh asked on his radio program on Friday. > "Instead of buying us off and treating us like we’re a bunch of whores, > just solve the problem." In commentary on Fox News Sunday, Brit Hume > called the idea "silly." > The reaction comes as the rising price of gasoline has put the public in > a volatile mood and as polls show that cynicism about Congress is at its > highest level since 1994.
ah, Charlie Christian….
> Sharp Reaction to G.O.P. Plan on Gas Rebate > By CARL HULSE and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK > (New Yokr Times) > The Senate Republican plan to mail $100 checks to voters to ease the > burden of high gasoline prices is eliciting more scorn than gratitude > from the very people it was intended to help.
well, it should work, after all they bought the first election by giving every one $300 tax rebate. Yessiree it’ll work on an innumerate consituancy. I’ll give you $300 if you agree to let me spend 3 billion on my contributors who gave me $300,000 to get elected. See how it works? Trickle up magic. $300 becomes $300,000 becomes $3,000,000,000. The way this will work is that $100 becomes 1,000,000 becomes 1,000,000,000,000 – yep and that’s a steal!!!
Sorry I forget, F U Bush csuckers.
Even as President George W. Bush denounced the brutal Islamic fundamentalist regime in Kabul, he was quietly laying the foundations for his own fundamentalist regime at home. For the first time far right Christian fundamentalists had one of their own in the White House and the opportunity to begin rolling back decades of health and family planning programs they saw as un-Christian, if not downright sinful. Since 2001 dozens of far-right Christian fundamentalists have been quietly installed in key positions within the Department of Health and Human Services, the Federal Drug Administration and on commissions and advisory committees where they have made serious progress. Three years later this administration has established one of the most rigid sexual health agendas in the Western world. It began immediately. One of George W. Bush’s first acts as president was to issue an executive memorandum reinstating a global abortion "gag rule." The rule was first implemented under Ronald Reagan but revoked during the two Clinton administrations. The rule prohibited federally funded family planning providers from even discussing abortion with their clients. Bush’s order reflected the views of those at farthest reaches of the Christian right, zealots who saw any means by which women controlled reproduction as unbiblical: "I would like to outlaw contraception…contraception is disgusting — people using each other for pleasure." -Joseph Scheidler, Pro-Life Action League "I don’t think Christians should use birth control. You consummate your marriage as often as you like — and if you have babies, you have babies." Randall Terry, Operation Rescue Over the next twelve months the administration moved quickly to install similarly-minded Christian fundamentalists to positions of authority and influence over all matters relating to reproductive and sexual health. Dr. Alma Golden: appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary of Population Affairs. A Texas pediatrician, she is a longtime proponent of abstinence as the only acceptable means of birth control. Dr. Golden declared that henceforth the department would stress "abstinence-only" as the solution to unwanted pregnancies, not just for teens, but unmarried adults as well. Tom Coburn: Former Republican congressman and anti-condom crusader. Appointed co-chair of the Presidential Advisory Council on HIV and AIDS. While in congress Coburn tried to force condom manufacturers to label condoms as "ineffective" against the spread of sexually transmitted infections. "I will challenge the national focus on condom use to prevent the spread of HIV," Coburn said upon his appointment. Dr. Joseph McIlhaney, Jr.: Appointed to Coburn on the HIV and AIDS advisory council. McIlhaney has a long and well-documented history of disseminating misleading data on condom failure rates. He was appointed in spite of the fact that in 1995 Governor George W. Bush’s own Texas Commissioner of Health openly denounced McIhaney’s anti-condom propaganda and his professional credibility. Dr. W. David Hager: Appointed to the FDA’s Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Dr. Hager served as spokesperson for the Christian Medical Association. He authored the book, As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now, and co-authored a book that recommended scripture readings and prayers to relieve the symptoms of PMS. Dr. Hager opposes prescribing contraceptives to unmarried women and spearheaded a petition drive by the Christian Medical Association to revoke the FDA’s approval of mifepristone, the so-called "morning after pill." Dr. Joseph B. Stanford: Also appointed to the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Dr. Stanford is on record for his belief that the only acceptable form of contraception, besides abstinence, is the all-natural "rhythm method." Dr. Stanford refuses to prescribe contraceptives, stating that "(modern) medicine is permeated with attitudes toward sexuality and fertility that are incompatible with Christian values of the sanctity of life, marriage, and procreation, attitudes that both reflect and perpetuate the recreational approach to sexuality found in our secular culture." Susan A. Crockett: The third Christian fundamentalist appointed to the same FDA committee. Crockett served as a board member of the American Association of Pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. She co-authored, "Using Hormone Contraceptives is a Decision Involving Science, Scripture, and Conscience" in the book, The Reproductive Revolution: A Christian Appraisal of Sexuality, Reproductive Technologies and the Family. The book was edited by Dr. Hager. When the hot issue of stem-cell research came up, President Bush dismissed two members of his Council on Bioethics who had each strongly supported the use of embryonic stem cells in research. They were replaced by three new members who, as the pro-life Family Research Council reported, "fall more in line with the President’s pro-life views." Information became a prime target of the Christian Taliban. President Bush says he respects "good science," when making public policy. But, the crux of the matter apparently hinges on the definition of "good," especially when it comes to family-planning issues. When good science clashes with Biblical fundamentalist beliefs in this administration, science loses every time. Early in 2001 Bush’s Christian Taliban began scrubbing federal information sources of offending materials. The censorship campaign prompted Representative Henry Waxman (D-CA) to send a letter to o HHS Secretary Thompson demanding an explanation for the removal of information from the HHS Web site of scientific findings by the National Cancer Institute that, contrary to anti-choice propaganda, abortions do not increase the risk of breast cancer. Thompson never responded but the "cleansing" continued. a.. Scientific data on condom use, long available on government health Web sites, was removed and replaced by sermons on abstinence and alarmist propaganda that exaggerated the risks of condom use. b.. The phrase "reproductive health" was expunged and replaced with the vague terms "related clinical preventive health services" and "related preventive health services." c.. Links to non-governmental family planning resources were deleted. d.. Web sites at the Centers of Disease Control and National Institute of Health were cleared of scientific studies and materials relating to abortion and condom use. e.. At the CDC results from a peer-reviewed study showing that education about condom use did not result in increased sexual activity or sex at younger age, were deleted from the Web site. f.. The NIH’s Web site was cleaned of FAQ’s on condom effectiveness and a sexuality education curriculum called "Programs that Work." Good science was disappearing from government publications and Web sites at such a pace that the Union of Concerned Scientists issued a report in early 2004 documenting and condemning the Bush administration. There is significant evidence that the scope and scale of the manipulation, suppression and misrepresentation of science by the Bush administration is unprecedented… There is a well-established pattern of suppression and distortion of scientific findings by high-ranking Bush administration political appointees across numerous federal agencies. These actions have consequences for human health, public safety, and community well-being." (Union of Concerned Scientists, report, Scientific Integrity in Policymaking. 2004.) So, even as the Bush administration denounced and battled Islamic religious zealotry abroad it was and is nurturing a fundamentalist Christian version here at home, much to the delight of radical right-wing Christians. "Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible is not neutral about what kind of government we should have," states Dr. Mark Allen Ludwig, author of True Christian Government. "God gave governments responsibility only for infrastructure and defense," according to an article by Rev. Bob Enyart, pastor of Denver Bible Church. "If government limited itself to its two just functions, thereby getting out of education, health care, farming, etc., it could better defend America. … Christians who carefully study the Bible are best qualified to teach the world how it should be governed." One of the oldest and best-established forces in the Christian Taliban attack on secular government has been the Christian Coalition. Recently the group threw its full weight behind the President’s push for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. The Christian Coalition has been conducting a "Let’s Take America Back" national petition drive over the last several months, which now also includes support for the so-called Federal Marriage Amendment. The Christian Coalition mission statement states: We are driven by the belief that people of faith have a right and a responsibility to be involved in the world around them. That involvement includes community, social and political action. Whether on a stump, in print, over the airways the Christian Coalition is dedicated to equipping and educating God’s people with the resources and information to battle against anti-family legislation. What is remarkable is that this was accomplished without significant public outcry. The reason is that America’s Christian Taliban are more public relations savvy than their Islamic counterparts. No American women are being forced to cover up, beaten for appearing in public wearing make up, or barred from the workplace. The changes being made are more subtle and less visibly shocking. They are incremental, technical, administrative — but far-reaching. They have also gotten away with it because we Americans like to consider ourselves tolerant and respectful of religious beliefs. Openly criticizing … read more »
metaphoric graphic illustration here: http://www.eatbabies.com/flash/1.htm
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette February 5, 2006 A Syrian Sidestep? About those Iraqi WMDs: More signs are pointing to a neighborly transfer By Jack Kelly Last week a man who had been deputy chief of Saddam Hussein’s air force claimed Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war began. Special Republican Guard brigades loaded yellow barrels with the skull and crossbones sign on each barrel onto two airliners from which the seats had been removed, Georges Sada said. There were 56 flights in all. "Saddam realized this time the Americans are coming," Mr. Sada told The New York Sun, one of a handful of news organizations which took note of what he had to say. There are grounds for skepticism. Mr. Sada was deputy chief of the Iraqi air force during the first Gulf War, not the more recent one, and his account of the movement of WMD to Syria is secondhand. Mr. Sada said he was told of the WMD transfer by the pilots of the two airliners, who approached him after Saddam was captured. But Mr. Sada’s is only the most recent of a series of accounts by people in a position to speak with authority who say (some of) Saddam’s chemical and biological weapons wound up in Syria. Last month Moshe Yaalon, who was Israel’s top general at the time, said Iraq transported WMD to Syria six weeks before Operation Iraqi Freedom began. Last March, John A. Shaw, a former U.S. deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said Russian Spetsnaz units moved WMD to Syria and Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley. "While in Iraq I received information from several sources naming the exact Russian units, what they took and where they took both WMD materials and conventional explosives," Mr. Shaw told NewsMax reporter Charles Smith. Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Michael DeLong was deputy commander of Central Command during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In September 2004, he told WABC radio that "I do know for a fact that some of those weapons went into Syria, Lebanon and Iran." In January 2004, David Kay, the first head of the Iraq Survey Group which conducted the search for Saddam’s WMD, told a British newspaper there was evidence unspecified materials had been moved to Syria from Iraq shortly before the war. "We know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam’s WMD program," Mr. Kay told the Sunday Telegraph. Also that month, Nizar Nayuf, a Syrian journalist who defected to an undisclosed European country, told a Dutch newspaper he knew of three sites where Iraq’s WMD was being kept. They were the town of al Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria; the Syrian air force base near the village of Tal Snan, and the city of Sjinsar on the border with Lebanon. In an addendum to his final report last April, Charles Duelfer, who succeeded David Kay as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said he couldn’t rule out a transfer of WMD from Iraq to Syria. "There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation," Mr. Duelfer said. In a briefing for reporters in October 2003, retired Air Force Lt. Gen. James Clapper Jr., who was head of the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency when the Iraq war began, said satellite imagery showed a heavy flow of traffic from Iraq into Syria just before the American invasion. "I think the people below Saddam Hussein and his sons’ level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to destroy and disperse," Lt. Gen. Clapper said. You haven’t heard much about these reports, because they contradict the meme that Saddam either had no WMD, or destroyed it well before the Iraq war began. The captured files of the Iraqi intelligence service, still mostly untranslated, could shed light on what did happen to Saddam’s WMD. John Loftus, a former Justice Department prosecutor, said a civilian contractor who has been among those examining the Mukhabarat files has found audiotapes of meetings in Saddam’s office where WMD was discussed. The contractor, a former military intelligence analyst, will make the tapes public Feb. 17 at a conference sponsored by Intelligence Summit, a private group that Mr. Loftus heads. Mr. Loftus wouldn’t disclose the identity of the contractor in advance of the conference, but said his tapes have been verified by the National Security Agency. "This isn’t a smoking gun. It’s a smoking cannon," he said. Those who have bet their political futures that Saddam had no WMD may be starting to sweat. Jack Kelly is national security writer for the Post-Gazette and The Blade of Toledo, Ohio.
http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/sounds/suspcous.wav
did courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Pittsburgh Post-Gazette >February 5, 2006 >A Syrian Sidestep? >About those Iraqi WMDs: More signs are pointing to a neighborly transfer >By Jack Kelly >Last week a man who had been deputy chief of Saddam Hussein’s air force >claimed Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war >began. >Special Republican Guard brigades loaded yellow barrels with the skull and >crossbones sign on each barrel onto two airliners from which the seats had >been removed, Georges Sada said. There were 56 flights in all. >"Saddam realized this time the Americans are coming," Mr. Sada told The New >York Sun, one of a handful of news organizations which took note of what he >had to say. >There are grounds for skepticism. Mr. Sada was deputy chief of the Iraqi air >force during the first Gulf War, not the more recent one, and his account of >the movement of WMD to Syria is secondhand. >Mr. Sada said he was told of the WMD transfer by the pilots of the two >airliners, who approached him after Saddam was captured.
Which reduces the whole thing to just fucking hearsay. Damn good grounds for a war and the death of thousand. You sure have my fucking vote. <clipped the rest of the garbage because it’s veracity died with the last paragraph> Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > did courageously avow: >Pittsburgh Post-Gazette >February 5, 2006 >A Syrian Sidestep? >About those Iraqi WMDs: More signs are pointing to a neighborly transfer >By Jack Kelly >Last week a man who had been deputy chief of Saddam Hussein’s air force >claimed Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war >began. >Special Republican Guard brigades loaded yellow barrels with the skull and >crossbones sign on each barrel onto two airliners from which the seats had >been removed, Georges Sada said. There were 56 flights in all. >"Saddam realized this time the Americans are coming," Mr. Sada told The >New >York Sun, one of a handful of news organizations which took note of what >he >had to say. >There are grounds for skepticism. Mr. Sada was deputy chief of the Iraqi >air >force during the first Gulf War, not the more recent one, and his account >of >the movement of WMD to Syria is secondhand. >Mr. Sada said he was told of the WMD transfer by the pilots of the two >airliners, who approached him after Saddam was captured. > Which reduces the whole thing to just fucking hearsay. Damn good > grounds for a war and the death of thousand. You sure have my fucking > vote. > <clipped the rest of the garbage because it’s veracity died with the > last paragraph>
?? Not sure what you’re upset about. This is a much more balanced article than the recent ones in the NY Sun and Newsmax. It puts the comments of the Iraqi AF general in perspective, e.g., "There are grounds for skepticism. Mr. Sada was deputy chief of the Iraqi air force during the first Gulf War, not the more recent one, and his account of the movement of WMD to Syria is secondhand." It also gives more specific information on previous claims about WMDs being moved to other countries before the U.S. came in. Looks to me that the jury is still out, however, without hard evidence provided by bullet-proof sources. I doubt anyone on AGA knows with certainty what the real story is. Of course, PMG says he knows… – KK
> Pittsburgh Post-Gazette > February 5, 2006 > About those Iraqi WMDs: More signs are pointing to a neighborly transfer
only WMD there are human bombs, and there are millions waiting in line to use them. —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-
did courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> did courageously avow: >>Pittsburgh Post-Gazette >>February 5, 2006 >>A Syrian Sidestep? >>About those Iraqi WMDs: More signs are pointing to a neighborly transfer >>By Jack Kelly >>Last week a man who had been deputy chief of Saddam Hussein’s air force >>claimed Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war >>began. >>Special Republican Guard brigades loaded yellow barrels with the skull and >>crossbones sign on each barrel onto two airliners from which the seats had >>been removed, Georges Sada said. There were 56 flights in all. >>"Saddam realized this time the Americans are coming," Mr. Sada told The >>New >>York Sun, one of a handful of news organizations which took note of what >>he >>had to say. >>There are grounds for skepticism. Mr. Sada was deputy chief of the Iraqi >>air >>force during the first Gulf War, not the more recent one, and his account >>of >>the movement of WMD to Syria is secondhand. >>Mr. Sada said he was told of the WMD transfer by the pilots of the two >>airliners, who approached him after Saddam was captured. > Which reduces the whole thing to just fucking hearsay. Damn good > grounds for a war and the death of thousand. You sure have my fucking > vote. > <clipped the rest of the garbage because it’s veracity died with the > last paragraph> >?? >Not sure what you’re upset about. This is a much more balanced article than >the recent ones in the NY Sun and Newsmax. It puts the comments of the >Iraqi AF general in perspective, e.g., "There are grounds for skepticism. >Mr. Sada was deputy chief of the Iraqi air force during the first Gulf War, >not the more recent one, and his account of the movement of WMD to Syria is >secondhand." It also gives more specific information on previous claims >about WMDs being moved to other countries before the U.S. came in. Looks to >me that the jury is still out, however, without hard evidence provided by >bullet-proof sources. >I doubt anyone on AGA knows with certainty what the real story is. Of >course, PMG says he knows… >- KK
As long as evidence is hearsay there are no Iraqi WMDs to be had, anywhere? What ever happened to America’s great pride in believing in justice, innocent until proven guilty at a trial made up with a judge an a jury of peers? Through his actions going into Iraq, GW in a single moment has undone a lot of goodwill from other nations that they had managed to rebuild since the Vietnam debacle. Mark my word, this is not over by a long shot. GW will have Iran come hell or high water and American body count be damned. Face it, if your not a member of the ruling elite then in that man’s eyes you’re cannon fodder, nothing more, nothing less. If you are unlucky enough to be a foreign civilian then you’re collateral damage. Welcome to the world of dehumanizing war so we’ll all be a little more accepting of the horror. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
> As long as evidence is hearsay there are no Iraqi WMDs to be had, > anywhere? What ever happened to America’s great pride in believing in > justice, innocent until proven guilty at a trial made up with a judge > an a jury of peers? Through his actions going into Iraq, GW in a > single moment has undone a lot of goodwill from other nations that > they had managed to rebuild since the Vietnam debacle.
Everyone now knows Bush’s *stated* rationale for invasion was not based on iron clad evidence. But I never did think the *main* reason for going in was to prevent WMDs from getting into the hands of terrorists. I think (and this is speculation on my part, since I wasn’t privy to Oval Office conversations) Bush had broader, bigger reasons for going in that had more to do with altering the political landscape of the middle east. Of course this reason for going to war would have been a lot more difficult to sell to the American people, and totally unacceptable to most other countries in the rest of the word – so he kept it simple, saying it was to prevent a terrorist WMD attack. Yeah! That’s the ticket! Too bad he didn’t give us more credit and wasn’t more honest. Things might have been a lot different. > Mark my word, > this is not over by a long shot. GW will have Iran come hell or high > water and American body count be damned. Face it, if your not a > member of the ruling elite then in that man’s eyes you’re cannon > fodder, nothing more, nothing less. If you are unlucky enough to be a > foreign civilian then you’re collateral damage. Welcome to the world > of dehumanizing war so we’ll all be a little more accepting of the > horror. > Ken Wilson
The way I look at our potential involvement in any war is that: firstly, our nation’s security should be seriously at risk; secondly, there are no peaceful means of resolving the issue; and thirdly, if war is necesary, it should be done in an overwhelming, merciless manner, with an objective of causing as few U.S. casualties as possible and ending it as soon as possible. In the case of the Iraq war, there are questions regarding all three of the above: Was our nation’s security seriously at risk? Did we exhaust all peaceful means of resolving the issue? Why have we been trying to fight a *WAR* on the cheap, with minimum resources? Why haven’t we been more concerned about implementing the best tactics and providing the best equipment to troops to minimize U.S. casualties? Why are we allowing the situation to drag on? If we’re going to go to war, we should be ready to pull out *all* the stops. Nuclear weapons should be part of the equation. Japan wouldn’t have surrendered when it did unless it had been nuked. Germany didn’t surrender until it was totally devestated. Iraq has gotten off extremely lucky compared to our enemies in World War II. Unfortunately, Korea and Vietnam showed the rest of the world that we weren’t always willing to pull out all the stops. This unwillingness has been used against us by the Iraqis and has emboldened terrorists. Bush/Cheny/Rumsefeld don’t seem to get this. Or they’re more concerned about other things. Or something. So you may say, nuke Iraq? Are you crazy? Well, if we’re not willing to do that, we shouldn’t have gone in in the first place. That’s my point. We probably *shouldn’t* have gone in knowing full well we’d never devestate the place like we did with Germany and Japan, thereby convincing the entire popluation with 100% certainty that resitance would be futile. The Iraqis (and the rest of the world) obviously aren’t convinced we mean business. It’s too late to nuke ‘em, now though. – KK
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->As long as evidence is hearsay there are no Iraqi WMDs to be had, >anywhere? What ever happened to America’s great pride in believing in >justice, innocent until proven guilty at a trial made up with a judge >an a jury of peers? Through his actions going into Iraq, GW in a >single moment has undone a lot of goodwill from other nations that >they had managed to rebuild since the Vietnam debacle. > Everyone now knows Bush’s *stated* rationale for invasion was not based on > iron clad evidence. But I never did think the *main* reason for going in > was to prevent WMDs from getting into the hands of terrorists. I think (and > this is speculation on my part, since I wasn’t privy to Oval Office > conversations) Bush had broader, bigger reasons for going in that had more > to do with altering the political landscape of the middle east. Of course > this reason for going to war would have been a lot more difficult to sell to > the American people, and totally unacceptable to most other countries in the > rest of the word – so he kept it simple, saying it was to prevent a > terrorist WMD attack. Yeah! That’s the ticket! > Too bad he didn’t give us more credit and wasn’t more honest. Things might > have been a lot different. >Mark my word, >this is not over by a long shot. GW will have Iran come hell or high >water and American body count be damned. Face it, if your not a >member of the ruling elite then in that man’s eyes you’re cannon >fodder, nothing more, nothing less. If you are unlucky enough to be a >foreign civilian then you’re collateral damage. Welcome to the world >of dehumanizing war so we’ll all be a little more accepting of the >horror. >Ken Wilson > The way I look at our potential involvement in any war is that: > firstly, our nation’s security should be seriously at risk; > secondly, there are no peaceful means of resolving the issue; > and thirdly, if war is necesary, it should be done in an overwhelming, > merciless manner, with an objective of causing as few U.S. casualties as > possible and ending it as soon as possible. > In the case of the Iraq war, there are questions regarding all three of the > above: Was our nation’s security seriously at risk? Did we exhaust all > peaceful means of resolving the issue? Why have we been trying to fight a > *WAR* on the cheap, with minimum resources? Why haven’t we been more > concerned about implementing the best tactics and providing the best > equipment to troops to minimize U.S. casualties? Why are we allowing the > situation to drag on? > If we’re going to go to war, we should be ready to pull out *all* the stops. > Nuclear weapons should be part of the equation. Japan wouldn’t have > surrendered when it did unless it had been nuked. Germany didn’t surrender > until it was totally devestated. Iraq has gotten off extremely lucky > compared to our enemies in World War II. Unfortunately, Korea and Vietnam > showed the rest of the world that we weren’t always willing to pull out all > the stops. This unwillingness has been used against us by the Iraqis and > has emboldened terrorists. > Bush/Cheny/Rumsefeld don’t seem to get this. Or they’re more concerned > about other things. Or something. > So you may say, nuke Iraq? Are you crazy? Well, if we’re not willing to do > that, we shouldn’t have gone in in the first place. That’s my point. We > probably *shouldn’t* have gone in knowing full well we’d never devestate the > place like we did with Germany and Japan, thereby convincing the entire > popluation with 100% certainty that resitance would be futile. The Iraqis > (and the rest of the world) obviously aren’t convinced we mean business. > It’s too late to nuke ‘em, now though. > – KK
Good post. The neocon movement and far-right terminally insane Jews are an amusement. Watch them dance that fonky hate dance.
If there were any truth to this story, then the Bush spin machine would have had this information out there. Mr Soul
Does kinda make you wonder why there hasn’t been any official government reponse to this story. – KK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If there were any truth to this story, then the Bush spin machine would > have had this information out there. > Mr Soul
> Good post.
Thnak you. > The neocon movement and far-right terminally insane Jews > are an amusement. Watch them dance that fonky hate dance.
I’m ready. – KK
Thnak you right back <g>
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good post. > Thnak you. > The neocon movement and far-right terminally insane Jews > are an amusement. Watch them dance that fonky hate dance. > I’m ready. > – KK
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Good post. > Thnak you. >The neocon movement and far-right terminally insane Jews >are an amusement. Watch them dance that fonky hate dance. > I’m ready. > – KK
They dance _JUST_ as well as the whacked out Muslims rioting over stupid cartoons.
did courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As long as evidence is hearsay there are no Iraqi WMDs to be had, > anywhere? What ever happened to America’s great pride in believing in > justice, innocent until proven guilty at a trial made up with a judge > an a jury of peers? Through his actions going into Iraq, GW in a > single moment has undone a lot of goodwill from other nations that > they had managed to rebuild since the Vietnam debacle. >Everyone now knows Bush’s *stated* rationale for invasion was not based on >iron clad evidence. But I never did think the *main* reason for going in >was to prevent WMDs from getting into the hands of terrorists. I think (and >this is speculation on my part, since I wasn’t privy to Oval Office >conversations) Bush had broader, bigger reasons for going in that had more >to do with altering the political landscape of the middle east. Of course >this reason for going to war would have been a lot more difficult to sell to >the American people, and totally unacceptable to most other countries in the >rest of the word – so he kept it simple, saying it was to prevent a >terrorist WMD attack. Yeah! That’s the ticket! >Too bad he didn’t give us more credit and wasn’t more honest. Things might >have been a lot different. > Mark my word, > this is not over by a long shot. GW will have Iran come hell or high > water and American body count be damned. Face it, if your not a > member of the ruling elite then in that man’s eyes you’re cannon > fodder, nothing more, nothing less. If you are unlucky enough to be a > foreign civilian then you’re collateral damage. Welcome to the world > of dehumanizing war so we’ll all be a little more accepting of the > horror. > Ken Wilson >The way I look at our potential involvement in any war is that: >firstly, our nation’s security should be seriously at risk; >secondly, there are no peaceful means of resolving the issue; >and thirdly, if war is necesary, it should be done in an overwhelming, >merciless manner, with an objective of causing as few U.S. casualties as >possible and ending it as soon as possible. >In the case of the Iraq war, there are questions regarding all three of the >above: Was our nation’s security seriously at risk?
From Iraq, no. > Did we exhaust all >peaceful means of resolving the issue?
No, because he didn’t want the issue resolved. He wanted an issue he could use to justify the invasion. It was decided it was going to be a go before it was even brought up at the UN let alone became the subject of any UN resolutions. > Why have we been trying to fight a >*WAR* on the cheap, with minimum resources?
Because he wants as little damage to the oil infrastructure as possible so Halliburton and his friendly Iraq government can ship oil to him. Iraq is no good to him without oil. > Why haven’t we been more >concerned about implementing the best tactics and providing the best >equipment to troops to minimize U.S. casualties?
See remarks in earlier post about ‘cannon fodder’. Somebody has to feed them. If the citizens don’t get enough pain to keep them focused on Georges’s, oops, America’s goals they may quit enlisting in Americas version of suicide bombers. Sure they’re over there in a pack but they still die one at a time, although the difference in time in the explosions of IEDs may be immeasurable in some instances due to the close proximity of a number of victims to each other. > Why are we allowing the >situation to drag on?
Why are you? America has this gothic obsession with uniforms and caskets? >If we’re going to go to war, we should be ready to pull out *all* the stops. >Nuclear weapons should be part of the equation. Japan wouldn’t have >surrendered when it did unless it had been nuked. Germany didn’t surrender >until it was totally devestated. Iraq has gotten off extremely lucky >compared to our enemies in World War II.
Carefy, carefy. That can go both ways. Remember, you are not the only boys on the block anymore with the key to Pandora’s box. > Unfortunately, Korea and Vietnam >showed the rest of the world that we weren’t always willing to pull out all >the stops. This unwillingness has been used against us by the Iraqis and >has emboldened terrorists.
Korea and Vietnam showed that you gave up because there’s really was nothing to be gained. No resources to rob, just lots and lots and lots of gooks. Oil resources? Now we’er talkin’. Let’s GITTERDUN boy’s!!! >Bush/Cheny/Rumsefeld don’t seem to get this. Or they’re more concerned >about other things. Or something. >So you may say, nuke Iraq? Are you crazy? Well, if we’re not willing to do >that, we shouldn’t have gone in in the first place. That’s my point. We >probably *shouldn’t* have gone in knowing full well we’d never devestate the >place like we did with Germany and Japan, thereby convincing the entire >popluation with 100% certainty that resitance would be futile. The Iraqis >(and the rest of the world) obviously aren’t convinced we mean business. >It’s too late to nuke ‘em, now though.
You shouldn’t have gone in, period. You had neither moral authority nor a valid claim of self-defense. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>As long as evidence is hearsay there are no Iraqi WMDs to be had, >>anywhere? What ever happened to America’s great pride in believing in >>justice, innocent until proven guilty at a trial made up with a judge >>an a jury of peers? Through his actions going into Iraq, GW in a >>single moment has undone a lot of goodwill from other nations that >>they had managed to rebuild since the Vietnam debacle. > Everyone now knows Bush’s *stated* rationale for invasion was not based on > iron clad evidence. But I never did think the *main* reason for going in > was to prevent WMDs from getting into the hands of terrorists. I think (and > this is speculation on my part, since I wasn’t privy to Oval Office > conversations) Bush had broader, bigger reasons for going in that had more > to do with altering the political landscape of the middle east. Of course > this reason for going to war would have been a lot more difficult to sell to > the American people, and totally unacceptable to most other countries in the > rest of the word – so he kept it simple, saying it was to prevent a > terrorist WMD attack. Yeah! That’s the ticket! > Too bad he didn’t give us more credit and wasn’t more honest. Things might > have been a lot different. >>Mark my word, >>this is not over by a long shot. GW will have Iran come hell or high >>water and American body count be damned. Face it, if your not a >>member of the ruling elite then in that man’s eyes you’re cannon >>fodder, nothing more, nothing less. If you are unlucky enough to be a >>foreign civilian then you’re collateral damage. Welcome to the world >>of dehumanizing war so we’ll all be a little more accepting of the >>horror. >>Ken Wilson > The way I look at our potential involvement in any war is that: > firstly, our nation’s security should be seriously at risk; > secondly, there are no peaceful means of resolving the issue; > and thirdly, if war is necesary, it should be done in an overwhelming, > merciless manner, with an objective of causing as few U.S. casualties as > possible and ending it as soon as possible. > In the case of the Iraq war, there are questions regarding all three of the > above: Was our nation’s security seriously at risk? Did we exhaust all > peaceful means of resolving the issue? Why have we been trying to fight a > *WAR* on the cheap, with minimum resources? Why haven’t we been more > concerned about implementing the best tactics and providing the best > equipment to troops to minimize U.S. casualties? Why are we allowing the > situation to drag on? > If we’re going to go to war, we should be ready to pull out *all* the stops. > Nuclear weapons should be part of the equation. Japan wouldn’t have > surrendered when it did unless it had been nuked. Germany didn’t surrender > until it was totally devestated. Iraq has gotten off extremely lucky > compared to our enemies in World War II. Unfortunately, Korea and Vietnam > showed the rest of the world that we weren’t always willing to pull out all > the stops. This unwillingness has been used against us by the Iraqis and > has emboldened terrorists. > Bush/Cheny/Rumsefeld don’t seem to get this. Or they’re more concerned > about other things. Or something. > So you may say, nuke Iraq? Are you crazy? Well, if we’re not willing to do > that, we shouldn’t have gone in in the first place. That’s my point. We > probably *shouldn’t* have gone in knowing full well we’d never devestate the > place like we did with Germany and Japan, thereby convincing the entire > popluation with 100% certainty that resitance would be futile. The Iraqis > (and the rest of the world) obviously aren’t convinced we mean business. > It’s too late to nuke ‘em, now though. > – KK >Good post. >The neocon movement and far-right terminally insane Jews >are an amusement. Watch them dance that fonky hate dance.
Unfortunately it has gone beyond that. You have the Jews belief they are God’s chosen people and American fundamentalists who believe they are God’s chosen people as well. Fortunately for the two sides they don’t see that there can’t be two chosen people presently. Once they’ve eradicated Islam from the world it could be a whole new story. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
courageously avow: >Does kinda make you wonder why there hasn’t been any official >government reponse to this story. >- KK > If there were any truth to this story, then the Bush spin machine would > have had this information out there. > Mr Soul
As stupid as I feel the Bush administration is, they’re intelligent enough to know by now that the WMD things is a non-flier. And, with ideas on Iran, George can ill afford to create a third front in Syria, even if Israel helps. All the Arab friends George has in the Middle East would not be able to stop the backlash. Look at the furor just over some cartoons. I think this play is going to get a longer engagement than the producers could even have imagined. Think about it, for those of you who follow or attempt to follow, the King James bible. Trouble similar to this was predicted to come sometime after the second millennium following Christ’s death and would involve two foreign powers (Gog, Magog) descending on the Middle East and that it would last a long, long time, followed by a thousand years of peace. As some have maybe pointed out, it may be useless to try to do something about which you can’t. Maybe even George can’t stop it but is moving in a fashion ordained before man was a glimmer in the maker’s eyes. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
> If there were any truth to this story, then the Bush spin machine would > have had this information out there.
There hasn’t been any spin machine since the election and that is why the Administration got so far behind the curve when so many on the Left were telling the "Bush Lied" LIE to America. That lie was told so often, that many in America were starting to believe it, and that happened solely because the spin machine was NOT doing any spinning. That was how Bush’s approval dropped to 36%, and after they finally started answering the lie, as the last Rasmussen poll showed, his numbers rose to 50 %.
> Does kinda make you wonder why there hasn’t been any official > government reponse to this story.
I’d say that the Administration has enough on it’s plate at the moment, and resurrecting that subject will not be a winner for them at the moment. They won’t be spending their skimpy political capital on Syria, when Iran & North Korea are a bit more pressing.
> Your belief in the Bush adminstration’s honesty is really pathetic.
You mean the Administration that I stated that I did NOT trust until I verified what they said about the NSA program? The > most secretive and dishonest government since Nixon.
Your dishonesty drawfs theirs.
courageously avow: >Unfortunately it has gone beyond that. You have the Jews belief they >are God’s chosen people and American fundamentalists who believe they >are God’s chosen people as well. Fortunately for the two sides they >don’t see that there can’t be two chosen people presently. Once >they’ve eradicated Islam from the world it could be a whole new story. >Don’t forget the Christian fundamentalists (the American Talbian) that back >George Bush’s attempts to rid the world of Islam fundamentalists…
Possibly my bad, I should have used Christian fundamentalist. The are plenty of good Americans, you just can’t hear them over the squawking of the chicken hawks. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
>> If there were any truth to this story, then the Bush spin machine would > have had this information out there. >There hasn’t been any spin machine since the election and that is why the >Administration got so far behind the curve when so many on the Left were >telling the "Bush Lied" LIE to America.
Apologist. Bush lied and you know it. <rest of lies and deceit snipped> Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
>> Your belief in the Bush adminstration’s honesty is really pathetic. >You mean the Administration that I stated that I did NOT trust until I >verified what they said about the NSA program? >The > most secretive and dishonest government since Nixon. >Your dishonesty drawfs theirs.
You have no respect for people. I don’t know why they even talk to you. If you kept openly challenging my integrity I’d only pray I lived close enough to come over and knock your block off. Say you disagree, or say they may have misconstrued the facts, but don’t be telling everybody they’re liars apologist boy, someone is going to wrap your tutu around your neck and pull it tight one of these days. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Your belief in the Bush adminstration’s honesty is really pathetic. >You mean the Administration that I stated that I did NOT trust until I >verified what they said about the NSA program? >The >> most secretive and dishonest government since Nixon. >Your dishonesty drawfs theirs. >You have no respect for people. I don’t know why they even talk to >you. If you kept openly challenging my integrity I’d only pray I >lived close enough to come over and knock your block off. Say you >disagree, or say they may have misconstrued the facts, but don’t be >telling everybody they’re liars apologist boy, someone is going to >wrap your tutu around your neck and pull it tight one of these days. >Ken Wilson >Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ >For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
WMDs = Whining, Moaning Democrats. don’t forget WMC’s Whining, Moaning Colonials. There isn’t the combined integrity of one successful used car salesman in the whole lot, and that goes double for you, Sock-Mistress Kemmy. — | ^ JOIN THE | /" ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | / TO RID USENET OF | X NATTERING FUCKWITS | /
courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Your belief in the Bush adminstration’s honesty is really pathetic. >>You mean the Administration that I stated that I did NOT trust until I >>verified what they said about the NSA program? >>The >>> most secretive and dishonest government since Nixon. >>Your dishonesty drawfs theirs. >You have no respect for people. I don’t know why they even talk to >you. If you kept openly challenging my integrity I’d only pray I >lived close enough to come over and knock your block off. Say you >disagree, or say they may have misconstrued the facts, but don’t be >telling everybody they’re liars apologist boy, someone is going to >wrap your tutu around your neck and pull it tight one of these days. >Ken Wilson >Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ >For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/ >WMDs = Whining, Moaning Democrats. >don’t forget WMC’s >Whining, Moaning Colonials. >There isn’t the combined integrity of one successful used >car salesman in the whole lot, and that goes double >for you, Sock-Mistress Kemmy.
Right on cue. Ken Wilson Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/ For the Other Side of Things http://www.whitehouse.org/
> You have no respect for people.
I show no disrespect until they do it me. There have been a number of people that I have had respectful, factual discussions here, and when it has happened, I have noted how much I appreciate it. > I don’t know why they even talk to you.
Because I do have a lot to offer. > If you kept openly challenging my integrity I’d only pray I > lived close enough to come over and knock your block off.
1) I only challenge someone’s integrity when they post something that we both know to be untrue. 2) As for "knocking my block off", an invitation for you to make that attempt has been made a number of times! ;0) Do consider that before iwas involved in dance, it was Tang Soo Do that was my passion. Say you > disagree, or say they may have misconstrued the facts, but don’t be > telling everybody they’re liars
Again, I have only posted that they are liars, when they lie. > apologist boy,
No it is you that is being dishonest, AND disrespectful, remember in my last post in this thread, I reiterated that I did NOT trust Bush’s story, but again, you would rather lead with invective instead of facts. > someone is going to wrap your tutu around your neck and pull it tight one > of these days.
Idle threats illustrate how hollow you are. While you did slip this was still light years beyond your posts from ages ago, and I do hope that things continue to mature to where we can chat with respect all of the way through a thread.
Photos of Bush With Abramoff Are Withheld By Jim VandeHei and Susan Schmidt (Washington Post) Several White House officials have been briefed about pictures of President Bush and Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff taken since 2001 but will not release them on grounds that they are not relevant to the ongoing money-for-favors investigation, aides said yesterday. Abramoff, who recently pleaded guilty in the growing bribery and corruption scandal, was with Bush about a dozen times when pictures were taken by the official White House photographer or other participants over the past five years, according to a source familiar with Abramoff
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Look, I was tracing my family history back to its roots, and I have > found that some of my ancestors were burned at the cross for false > crimes. I know > this practice went on for decades, and it would probably still be > going on if oak wasn’t so damn expensive, so it’s time for > retribution. > Anyone want to join me in a class action lawsuit? Great injustices > have been done, and I want what is owed to me and my family. > Oh, and my great great great great Aunt Selma was not a witch as > proclaimed > by the Christian Witch Finder General. > Thanks. > Mr.Noname > While we’re at it, the blacks and the Indians can sue all the whites > for the atrocious crimes they had to endure. All the lynchings of > blacks and all the killing of Indians over land ownership. No stone > shall be unturned. Every single white man, woman and child shall pay > dearly!
Ummm, this is already happening is it not?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Look, I was tracing my family history back to its roots, and I have >> found that some of my ancestors were burned at the cross for false >> crimes. I know >> this practice went on for decades, and it would probably still be >> going on if oak wasn’t so damn expensive, so it’s time for >> retribution. >> Anyone want to join me in a class action lawsuit? Great injustices >> have been done, and I want what is owed to me and my family. >> Oh, and my great great great great Aunt Selma was not a witch as >> proclaimed >> by the Christian Witch Finder General. >> Thanks. >> Mr.Noname > While we’re at it, the blacks and the Indians can sue all the whites > for the atrocious crimes they had to endure. All the lynchings of > blacks and all the killing of Indians over land ownership. No stone > shall be unturned. Every single white man, woman and child shall pay > dearly! > Ummm, this is already happening is it not?
It is? Where?
Look, I was tracing my family history back to its roots, and I have found that some of my ancestors were burned at the cross for false crimes. I know this practice went on for decades, and it would probably still be going on if oak wasn’t so damn expensive, so it’s time for retribution. Anyone want to join me in a class action lawsuit? Great injustices have been done, and I want what is owed to me and my family. Oh, and my great great great great Aunt Selma was not a witch as proclaimed by the Christian Witch Finder General. Thanks. Mr.Noname
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Look, I was tracing my family history back to its roots, and I have found > that some of my ancestors were burned at the cross for false crimes. I > know > this practice went on for decades, and it would probably still be going on > if oak wasn’t so damn expensive, so it’s time for retribution. > Anyone want to join me in a class action lawsuit? Great injustices have > been done, and I want what is owed to me and my family. > Oh, and my great great great great Aunt Selma was not a witch as > proclaimed > by the Christian Witch Finder General. > Thanks. > Mr.Noname
While we’re at it, the blacks and the Indians can sue all the whites for the atrocious crimes they had to endure. All the lynchings of blacks and all the killing of Indians over land ownership. No stone shall be unturned. Every single white man, woman and child shall pay dearly!
"The French government was reeling after nearly a week of suburban rioting outside Paris spread to other areas around the capital, laying bare what observers said was the country’s failure to address deep problems of poverty and immigration. Gangs of stone-throwing youths clashed with police and torched 180 cars overnight in several towns north and west of Paris in an escalation of dusk-to-dawn violence that has raged since last Thursday following the death of two teenagers in the northeast suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. Thirty-four people were arrested in the rampages, which have so shaken authorities that President Jacques Chirac came forward to call for calm and vow to investigate the teens’ deaths. "Tempers must calm down," a spokesman quoted him as telling his cabinet. Chirac warned that "an escalation of disrespectful behaviour would lead to a dangerous situation" and asserted that "there can be no area existing outside the law" in France. Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin put off indefinitely a trip to Canada originally scheduled for Wednesday to call an emergency meeting of ministers to discuss the problem and attend a parliamentary session in which he called the violence "extremely serious". He told ministers that "the government will ensure public order and will do so with the necessary firmness." He said he was counting on Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy — who cancelled a trip next week to Pakistan and Afghanistan to deal with the situation — to "take the necessary measures." In all, more than 80 people have been arrested and two dozen police hurt since the start of the riots last week. They were triggered by the accidental electrocution of two youths, aged 15 and 17, who had scaled an electrical relay station’s walls to escape a police identity check in the street. Since then, tensions — punctuated by the nighttime confrontations — have increased in the low-rent, high-immigrant suburbs that surround Paris. The firing of a police teargas grenade against a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois during clashes late Sunday also sparked rage in the suburb’s large Muslim community. The grievances have been further fuelled by Sarkozy’s hardline law-and-order policies. The interior minister, who is also leader of France’s ruling UMP party, has made no secret of his ambition to succeed Chirac in 2007 presidential elections. Just one week before the riots exploded, he promised a "war without mercy" on violence and petty crime in the suburbs. The opposition Socialist Party criticised Sarkozy’s rhetoric, and accused the government of "creating an explosive situation" in the suburbs. Observers saw the riots as a sign of the growing divisions in French society — Muslim immigration, poverty, declining education standards in downtrodden areas and joblessness. The left-leaning newspaper Liberation said successive governments had "broken their noses on the reality of the ghettos, often minimized and often forgotten in their priorities." But in an interview with Le Parisien newspaper Wednesday, Sarkozy defended his tough policies by saying that some poor suburbs had come under "the rule of gangs, of drugs, of traffickers" and that his measures had brought down crime by eight percent a year. "The feeling of exclusion, illegal immigration and the high level of unemployment creates considerable problems," he said, asserting that "firmness, but also justice" was needed. Suburbs such as Clichy-sous-Bois suffer from unemployment rates more than twice the national average, which is already relatively high at around 10 percent. Tuesday night’s violence included fewer of the direct clashes between youths and police seen on previous nights in Clichy-sous-Bois, police and municipal sources said. But while that suburb was relatively calm under the presence of several hundred police, outbreaks of trouble in other areas overwhelmed officers. Cars were torched and police reported sporadic incidents involving groups of youths in Val-d’Oise to the north of the capital and Seine-et-Marne to the southeast, with lesser violence reported in Yvelines to the west. Similar violence has gripped poor Paris suburbs at least 13 times in the past decade following the deaths of local youths by accident, by police or by neighbours, according to an AFP tally. A French sociologist, Michel Wieviorka, told AFP that such rampages were "the expression of desperation, of anger and a feeling of injustice." They came about, he said, because "France doesn’t know how to cope with the faltering of its republican model of integration."" http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051102/1/3w5ml.html
Proof that socialism and unchecked Immigration can ruin a culture and ultimately a country. Hopefully Villepin will use the "firmness that is necessary" to correct their longstanding problems. Clarke
And hopefully U.S. citizens will do the same. Texas Blue
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Proof that socialism and unchecked Immigration can ruin a culture and > ultimately a country. Hopefully Villepin will use the "firmness that is > necessary" to correct their longstanding problems. > Clarke
Do they go for the big screens TV’s first?
> "The French government was reeling after nearly a week of suburban rioting
outside Paris spread to other areas around the capital, > laying bare what observers said was the country’s failure to address deep
problems of poverty and immigration. > Gangs of stone-throwing youths clashed with police and torched 180 cars
overnight in several towns north and west of Paris in an > escalation of dusk-to-dawn violence that has raged since last Thursday
following the death of two teenagers in the northeast suburb > of Clichy-sous-Bois. > Thirty-four people were arrested in the rampages, which have so shaken
authorities that President Jacques Chirac came forward to > call for calm and vow to investigate the teens’ deaths. > "Tempers must calm down," a spokesman quoted him as telling his cabinet. > Chirac warned that "an escalation of disrespectful behaviour would lead to
a dangerous situation" and asserted that "there can be no > area existing outside the law" in France. > Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin put off indefinitely a trip to Canada
originally scheduled for Wednesday to call an emergency > meeting of ministers to discuss the problem and attend a parliamentary
session in which he called the violence "extremely serious". > He told ministers that "the government will ensure public order and will
do so with the necessary firmness." > He said he was counting on Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy — who
cancelled a trip next week to Pakistan and Afghanistan to deal > with the situation — to "take the necessary measures." > In all, more than 80 people have been arrested and two dozen police hurt
since the start of the riots last week. > They were triggered by the accidental electrocution of two youths, aged 15
and 17, who had scaled an electrical relay station’s > walls to escape a police identity check in the street. > Since then, tensions — punctuated by the nighttime confrontations — have
increased in the low-rent, high-immigrant suburbs that > surround Paris. > The firing of a police teargas grenade against a mosque in
Clichy-sous-Bois during clashes late Sunday also sparked rage in the > suburb’s large Muslim community. > The grievances have been further fuelled by Sarkozy’s hardline
law-and-order policies. > The interior minister, who is also leader of France’s ruling UMP party,
has made no secret of his ambition to succeed Chirac in 2007 > presidential elections. > Just one week before the riots exploded, he promised a "war without mercy"
on violence and petty crime in the suburbs. > The opposition Socialist Party criticised Sarkozy’s rhetoric, and accused
the government of "creating an explosive situation" in the > suburbs. > Observers saw the riots as a sign of the growing divisions in French
society — Muslim immigration, poverty, declining education > standards in downtrodden areas and joblessness. > The left-leaning newspaper Liberation said successive governments had
"broken their noses on the reality of the ghettos, often > minimized and often forgotten in their priorities." > But in an interview with Le Parisien newspaper Wednesday, Sarkozy defended
his tough policies by saying that some poor suburbs had > come under "the rule of gangs, of drugs, of traffickers" and that his
measures had brought down crime by eight percent a year. > "The feeling of exclusion, illegal immigration and the high level of
unemployment creates considerable problems," he said, asserting > that "firmness, but also justice" was needed. > Suburbs such as Clichy-sous-Bois suffer from unemployment rates more than
twice the national average, which is already relatively > high at around 10 percent. > Tuesday night’s violence included fewer of the direct clashes between
youths and police seen on previous nights in Clichy-sous-Bois, > police and municipal sources said. > But while that suburb was relatively calm under the presence of several
hundred police, outbreaks of trouble in other areas > overwhelmed officers. > Cars were torched and police reported sporadic incidents involving groups
of youths in Val-d’Oise to the north of the capital and > Seine-et-Marne to the southeast, with lesser violence reported in Yvelines to the west. > Similar violence has gripped poor Paris suburbs at least 13 times in the
past decade following the deaths of local youths by > accident, by police or by neighbours, according to an AFP tally. > A French sociologist, Michel Wieviorka, told AFP that such rampages were
"the expression of desperation, of anger and a feeling of > injustice." > They came about, he said, because "France doesn’t know how to cope with
the faltering of its republican model of integration."" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051102/1/3w5ml.html
> Proof that socialism and unchecked Immigration can ruin a culture and > ultimately a country. Hopefully Villepin will use the "firmness that is > necessary" to correct their longstanding problems. > Clarke
Have they tried Midnight Basketball yet? How about a Free Shit program? LV
I guess I’d rather have illegal Mexicans than illegal Muslims, count your blessings. At least the mexicans come to work, are family oriented, and have a moral consciense. As opposed to the Muslims who are just out to literally kill anyone who is a Jew or Christian.
> Proof that socialism and unchecked Immigration can ruin a culture and > ultimately a country.
You’re an idiot.
Perhaps. But it does not change the problems that France and many other countries face today created by having very liberal immigration policies and leaky borders. Clarke timepixdc said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You’re an idiot.
> I guess I’d rather have illegal Mexicans than illegal Muslims, count > your blessings. At least the mexicans come to work, are family > oriented, and have a moral consciense. As opposed to the Muslims who > are just out to literally kill anyone who is a Jew or Christian.
actually, any non-muslim.
>Proof that socialism and unchecked Immigration can ruin a culture and ultimately a country.
Another idiotic conservative statement. What are you, native American?
Why yes thank you. I was born right here in the US. Clarke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->plaY on farted; >What are you, native American?