About Religion

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would have to stick up for Gwen on this one.  It is impossible > to understand the importance that the Jewish religion places on > the family without actually experiencing it.  Add to that the > feeling of community that is felt among Jewish people, and you > might be able to understand Gwen’s comment.  When a Jewish > person marries outside the faith, the connection is lost.  Studies have > shown that when intermarriage occurs, even when the children are > exposed to both faiths, 80% of the children become Christians, while > the majority of the other 20% don’t believe anything.  This is not > a racist comment, it is fact. > Jewish law does not recognize an interfaith marriage, because it > usually means that the Jewish identity of the person, as well as their > children is lost.  (Note that I said "usually," not "always.") > This is especially true when the non-Jewish person is the mother, > because, under Jewish law, that would mean that the children are > not considered Jewish.  In today’s world, the fact that a Jewish > person marries outside the religion *usually* does not mean that > the family or friends of the couple will not continue to support > and love them as they always have.  Instead, they will feel "saddened" > that one more portion (or future portion) of their community has > been lost.

And I have to agree with Kate and Gwen. I have two cousins who married Catholic men, and well, they gave up their Judaism.  Not in the technical sense of conversion, but they are no longer observant. I on the other hand, while willing to date anyone, made sure that I never let the relationship go too far unless either the person was Jewish, or they were willing to adopt Judaism.  I will be having a Jewish wedding in June. I have watched my cousins be almost ostricized, and I could not go through that.  The other key is that I was in no way willing to give up my beliefs.  As Kate stated, 80% of interfaith children give up Judaism. Seth

Response:

: Actually, I don’t think this is too off-topic for a.w.  Although it is : probably more on-topic for…is it soc.culture.jewish?  Anybody : interested in hearing the rationale for the opinion David quotes should : probably run a search for "jewish" and subscribe, because that part of it : does strike me as being off-topic.  (Discussing how this plays into : weddings and interfaith couples who do not concur is more on-topic.) : One of my husband’s cousins (Jewish) married a Catholic, and I believe I : remember hearing fourth or fifth hand through that reliable family : grapevine that a boyfriend (now fiance) of another cousin had refused to : attend the celebration because he believes that it is wrong to recognize : interfaith marriages between Jews and non-Jews.  At our wedding (I am not : Jewish), his fiance wrote "unfortunately he has another commitment that : weekend."  I figured it didn’t matter one way or another whether that : commitment was to his religious beliefs or to another social : event–either was valid in my book, and if it was the former, it was kind : of him to be tactful. : So, yes, I’m taken aback by such sentiments expressed openly, mostly : because I see them as part of a religious/social/racial agenda with which : I happen to disagree, and to which (IMO) nobody has a right to hold me. I’m sorry you view it that way.  It is based on the importance of the Jewish *family* in which much of the observance takes place in the home.  With intermarriages, this does not happen.  (of course, converts are another matter).  The only *agenda* is the perpetuation of the faith.  Most children of intermarried couples are not brought up Jewishly.  I have first cousins who are Unitarian. I personally would still go to a wedding of relatives who intermarry, and my relatives who have are not ostracized.  But deeply observant Jews often feel that the relatives have left the family. : Out of respect for these beliefs I generally try not to shove it in : people’s faces that I’m a non-Jew married to a Jew.  But I think that it’s : important for non-Jews marrying Jews to understand that many Jews believe : that interfaith marriage is not a good thing.  I didn’t really appreciate : this at first, because (obviously) my husband decided it wasn’t really : important to him.  And it strikes a much deeper nerve for some than the : "scandal" of other sorts of interfaith marriages. : Good luck to anyone dealing with these issues, : Karen : — : Karen L. Greenberg Indeed.  If you go back and read my post, you will see that I was trying to be helpful.  David flamed me for expressing my feelings, then ignored the rest of my message.  I do not judge the couple. I am sure they are nice people.  I thought that they would like to know how religious Jews will feel, and how they would definitely be better off marrying in a non-religious place. That was the point of my message.  It was not in any way an attempt to alter their plans, but to answer their question. Gwen — "Live as one already dead." –Japanese saying I live in fear of not being misunderstood.– Oscar wilde

Response:

David G. Simmons, you are too much. This man flamed me privately for my expression of sadness at yet another intermarriage.  He called me a *racist*!  When I explained how Jews view intermarriage and how it is not intermarriage, he continued to insult me. I said he should have posted in the first place, not sent me privately rude email.  Now he takes it public! David, what are you trying to start?  Are you that disappointed that you were the only one to blatantly misconstrue my message? Are you that sad that I refuse to discuss it further with you, that you have to try to stir something up here? Jews value the Jewish family very highly, and expressing sadness at intermarriage is neither personal nor racist.  But too bad you condemn a whole religious viewpoint.  Do you think I *invented* this view of religion? Gwen : > Getting married in a church will be offensive to his relatives, just the : > same way I am sure it would be offensive to your family if you married in a : > synagogue.  Most rabbis will not perform a mixed marriage and I don’t : > beleive priests will either; you both need to talk to your respective rabbi : > and priest for guidance in that matter.  You will be best off having the : > ceremony at the reception site such as a hotel or catering hall or : > depending on the time of year, in a park or your home.  Good luck : I understand this well, and this is a great answer. My Aunt had these same issues, : and it was very difficult for her, and her husband, to work out. : I asked both a Catholic and a Jewish friend about the comment, and they were both taken aback by it as well. Is it just us, or was anyone else? Feel free to send me email, as I realize that this is fairly off-topic for alt.wedding. : But just to not *completely* waste the post, check out my ‘wedding page!’ Well, it’s not updated to the wedding, per se, just yet, but it will be soon! : David : — : David G. Simmons, Systems Engineer            Sun Microsystems, Inc. : 1700 Louisiana Blvd. NE, Suite 300            1-800-SKY-PAGE #5708157 : Albuquerque, NM 87110                         Cellular: (505) 660-4000 : Voice: (505) 262-5231                         FAX: (505) 268-5264 : SunWeb: http://www-nm.West/pages/davids            Web: http://www.ni.net/dgsim : "Don’t get gunk on me.  I took a bath last Saturday and I’m all clean." :               -Calvin — "Live as one already dead." –Japanese saying I live in fear of not being misunderstood.– Oscar wilde

Response:

> Getting married in a church will be offensive to his relatives, just the > same way I am sure it would be offensive to your family if you married in a > synagogue.  Most rabbis will not perform a mixed marriage and I don’t > beleive priests will either; you both need to talk to your respective rabbi > and priest for guidance in that matter.  You will be best off having the > ceremony at the reception site such as a hotel or catering hall or > depending on the time of year, in a park or your home.  Good luck

I understand this well, and this is a great answer. My Aunt had these same issues, and it was very difficult for her, and her husband, to work out. I asked both a Catholic and a Jewish friend about the comment, and they were both taken aback by it as well. Is it just us, or was anyone else? Feel free to send me email, as I realize that this is fairly off-topic for alt.wedding. But just to not *completely* waste the post, check out my ‘wedding page!’ Well, it’s not updated to the wedding, per se, just yet, but it will be soon! David — David G. Simmons, Systems Engineer              Sun Microsystems, Inc. 1700 Louisiana Blvd. NE, Suite 300              1-800-SKY-PAGE #5708157 Albuquerque, NM 87110                           Cellular: (505) 660-4000 Voice: (505) 262-5231                           FAX: (505) 268-5264 SunWeb: http://www-nm.West/pages/davids              Web: http://www.ni.net/dgsim "Don’t get gunk on me.  I took a bath last Saturday and I’m all clean."                 -Calvin

Response:

>Hi all, >Well, Don’s Jewish, I’m a practicing Catholic.  I’m wondering whether >any of you are in this situation, and how you’re dealing with the wedding >(i.e., location, officiant, etc.)  I’ve always wanted to get married in my >hometowm church, but will this be offensive to his Jewish relatives?  And >what about having a joint ceremony, with a rabbi and a priest?  We won’t >be getting married for at least 1 1/2 years, but I’d be interested in >talking with anyone who’s figured out a way to handle this already and can >make it easy for me! >Katie

Getting married in a church will be offensive to his relatives, just the same way I am sure it would be offensive to your family if you married in a synagogue.  Most rabbis will not perform a mixed marriage and I don’t beleive priests will either; you both need to talk to your respective rabbi and priest for guidance in that matter.  You will be best off having the ceremony at the reception site such as a hotel or catering hall or depending on the time of year, in a park or your home.  Good luck — Abby Riba Abby Designs Custom Dressmaker   PACC Member-at-Large National Board Representative   Clearwater, FL

Response:

: > But posting something that you’ve received privately : > is a terrible breach, like publishing in the newspaper a : > private letter someone wrote you. : No, it is not.  One should write, speak, and act in a way, : that when revealed to the public, one should not be ashamed : on their actions.   You’re quite wrong.  When you receive private mail, you do not also receive permission to make it public.  This is a basic tenet of nettiquette; I didn’t invent it.  And if you do make snailmail you receive public, you are breaking the law. : In any case, although Gwen Orel has often good ideas, and I : respect a lot of her posts, from encounters with her on some : other groups, it seems that she does have to have a last word : on everything, and her opinions are the only right ones.   : Rational debates with her just detiorate into flamefests, but : maybe it is just the other people’s fault…. In this case, it is not a flamefest at all but justifiable outrage at having a private communication made public without my consent. Angry as I was at Simmons’ accusations, I would not publish his letters to me, even if I still had them.  That would be an infringement of his rights. Gwen — "Live as one already dead." –Japanese saying I live in fear of not being misunderstood.– Oscar wilde

Response:

: i’m not quite in the same situation, but i’ll share our situation with you. : i’m jewish, and greg was baptised (?sp) catholic, but heand his family : are non-practising.  we’re having a jewish ceremony, and greg and i are : learning about the jewish traditions together, and we won’t do anything : either one of us feels uncomfortable about.  for h’ors d’heurves, we’re : having roaming mariachis (greg’s roots are spanish/mexican/native : american/french) in an effort to combine our heritages…. : sheri(&Greg, 5/26/96) just wanted to add that we are having our wedding under a chuppah outdoors on a cliff overlooking the ocean (where we went on our first official date) sheri

Response:

> But posting something that you’ve received privately > is a terrible breach, like publishing in the newspaper a > private letter someone wrote you.

No, it is not.  One should write, speak, and act in a way, that when revealed to the public, one should not be ashamed on their actions.   In any case, although Gwen Orel has often good ideas, and I respect a lot of her posts, from encounters with her on some other groups, it seems that she does have to have a last word on everything, and her opinions are the only right ones.   Rational debates with her just detiorate into flamefests, but maybe it is just the other people’s fault…. –Peter Mlynek

Response:

David posts private email… an absolute breach of nettiquette. : > NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs4.cis.pitt.edu : > X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : > David G. Simmons, you are too much. : > This man flamed me privately for my expression of sadness at yet : > another intermarriage.  He called me a *racist*!  When I explained : > how Jews view intermarriage and how it is not intermarriage, : > he continued to insult me. : > I said he should have posted in the first place, not sent me : > privately rude email.  Now he takes it public! : I was asking if anyone else felt as I did. So far, about 50/50. : Given that you were incapable of rational dscourse, and since you suggested I post : in the first place, I find it interesting that you now object. We exchanged about three letters before I asked that you stop. Given that your opener was to call me a racist, what did you expect? Do you expect insult to be a good way to begin a conversation : > David, what are you trying to start?  Are you that disappointed : > that you were the only one to blatantly misconstrue my : > message? : > Are you that sad that I refuse to discuss it further with you, : > that you have to try to stir something up here? : I am not trying to stir anything up, Gwen. Switch to decaf. Though I : normally wouldn’t do such a thing, for the record, yes, Gwen refused to : further discuss the matter. in a frighteningly mature manner: : > : > [ deletia ] : > : > Fuck you, too.  I will not read any further messages from you, you : > self-righteous twerp. : >   : > Gwen This was after the thrid response, in which you accused me of racism, narrow-mindedness, accused my whole religion of being backwards. But the post of private email says it all.  You really just want to insult me.  If all you wanted was to gather opinion, you could have phrased the question without making it *personal*. But since I refused to go on arguing with you, you took your private feud public. : So, given that a rational response was out of the question from Gwen, and : that I’d asked both a Catholic and a Jewish friend their reactions to the whole : thing, I thought I’d ask the group. : Gwen, if you do not want to read any further messages on the subject, then : don’t, okay? I never want to read any messages from people who begin by calling me names.  But I have my own name to consider, and when you slander me publicly you go too far. : > Jews value the Jewish family very highly, and expressing sadness : > at intermarriage is neither personal nor racist.  But too : > bad you condemn a whole religious viewpoint.  Do you think : > I *invented* this view of religion? : > : > Gwen : > : I never condemned a religious viewpoint. And it appears, from very preliminary responses : to the group, that we’re running about 50/50 on this issue. That’s what I had asked, and : am still interested in hearing from others. Again, I do not mind if we take this off-line : and discuss this over email, with *anyone*, but only if such discussion can be done : in a slightly more adult fashion than Gwen appears capable of conducting. If you expect an adult response and are *just curious*, you should not begin by judging those you speak with.  I did answer your first message, despite the fact that you called my view a *racist*.  I explained my pov and you just kept escalating your condemnation..  I’m glad you took it public, because apparently you are willing to listen to others’ explanations, though not to mine.  You had judged my remark and me before you ever began your discourse, which is why I lost my temper and declined to discuss it further with you. Gwen : Thanks all! : Oh, and I need a color for the wedding. I just found out that one was needed. Anyone have : an extra one they can lend me? : David : — : David G. Simmons, Systems Engineer            Sun Microsystems, Inc. : 1700 Louisiana Blvd. NE, Suite 300            1-800-SKY-PAGE #5708157 : Albuquerque, NM 87110                         Cellular: (505) 660-4000 : Voice: (505) 262-5231                         FAX: (505) 268-5264 : SunWeb: http://www-nm.West/pages/davids            Web: http://www.ni.net/dgsim : "Not yet. It’s decided to maim me first." :               -Calvin — "Live as one already dead." –Japanese saying I live in fear of not being misunderstood.– Oscar wilde

Response:

> NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs4.cis.pitt.edu > X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] > David G. Simmons, you are too much. > This man flamed me privately for my expression of sadness at yet > another intermarriage.  He called me a *racist*!  When I explained > how Jews view intermarriage and how it is not intermarriage, > he continued to insult me. > I said he should have posted in the first place, not sent me > privately rude email.  Now he takes it public!

I was asking if anyone else felt as I did. So far, about 50/50. Given that you were incapable of rational dscourse, and since you suggested I post in the first place, I find it interesting that you now object. > David, what are you trying to start?  Are you that disappointed > that you were the only one to blatantly misconstrue my > message? > Are you that sad that I refuse to discuss it further with you, > that you have to try to stir something up here?

I am not trying to stir anything up, Gwen. Switch to decaf. Though I normally wouldn’t do such a thing, for the record, yes, Gwen refused to further discuss the matter. in a frighteningly mature manner: > [ deletia ] > Fuck you, too.  I will not read any further messages from you, you > self-righteous twerp. > Gwen

So, given that a rational response was out of the question from Gwen, and that I’d asked both a Catholic and a Jewish friend their reactions to the whole thing, I thought I’d ask the group. Gwen, if you do not want to read any further messages on the subject, then don’t, okay? > Jews value the Jewish family very highly, and expressing sadness > at intermarriage is neither personal nor racist.  But too > bad you condemn a whole religious viewpoint.  Do you think > I *invented* this view of religion? > Gwen

I never condemned a religious viewpoint. And it appears, from very preliminary responses to the group, that we’re running about 50/50 on this issue. That’s what I had asked, and am still interested in hearing from others. Again, I do not mind if we take this off-line and discuss this over email, with *anyone*, but only if such discussion can be done in a slightly more adult fashion than Gwen appears capable of conducting. Thanks all! Oh, and I need a color for the wedding. I just found out that one was needed. Anyone have an extra one they can lend me? David — David G. Simmons, Systems Engineer              Sun Microsystems, Inc. 1700 Louisiana Blvd. NE, Suite 300              1-800-SKY-PAGE #5708157 Albuquerque, NM 87110                           Cellular: (505) 660-4000 Voice: (505) 262-5231                           FAX: (505) 268-5264 SunWeb: http://www-nm.West/pages/davids              Web: http://www.ni.net/dgsim "Not yet. It’s decided to maim me first."                 -Calvin

Response: